Unions. Whats Your Opinion?

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Closed shops are ilegal in Britain, as they should be everywhere else.

[Ramo]

I also see in Ramo's first post "instead of fighting for higher wages... they fight for protectionism and anti-immigration" How exactly are they going to fight for that with the situations there are now? Boeing left washington state because of this crap(and because of some incentives for moving out of the US...), they will build most of the parts in their airplanes outside of the US,and the few parts that are built here will be built in Non-union states.

The enemies of the American working class are not the poor of the rest of the world, but the capitalists. The only path to liberation is working class solidarity and unionism. Chauvanistic policies encourage non-union labor, driving wages down, and giving employers ready-made scabs.

As for outsourcing, for example, Argentina's workers have done nicely what with their taking over of abandoned factories.

[Ramo]

Closed shops have been illegal in the US ever since Taft-Hartley enacted in '47 (except for a few industries).

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

So Americans opposing unions on the basis that they don't like closed shops is a bit like Britons opposing Norway on the grounds that they don't like being raided by Vikings, isn't it?

[Ramo]

Indeed.

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by Agathon
One can gripe about some of the silly things that unions do, but they perform an important function: preventing the immiseration of the working poor. Sometimes they do this well, sometimes not.

It's the same as when people gripe about the free market. It performs an important function, but has its drawbacks.

Of course coming from one of the people who gripe most about the free market. hehe.

But I strongly support the idea behind unions. There has to be a balance between workers and management. Unions are a great, non-governmental tool for workers to fight for their own rights and I think thats wonderful.

I don't always agree with unions though, as has been noted they can be selfish and problematic. But as with any conflict, sometimes one side wins, other times that side looses. Its healthy.

[Ramo]

I think I ought to elaborate on my initial post. The main reason why US unions are as corrupt and incompetent as they are is because of our ****ty labor laws. For instance, a few years after the NLRB was formed - basically the full legalization of unions, rules were established that barred representation proceedings for a year after the establishment of a contract, allowing incumbent unions to maintain their power indefinitely (and thus ignore the rank and file). At around the same time, the courts declared the sit-down strike, a spontaneous strikes not called by union leaderships, illegal. Cooincidentally, I'm sure, sit-down strikes tend to be incredibly successful. And shortly afterwards, Congress smacked down labor rights by passing Taft-Hartley, which allowed the Pres to crush any strike he wanted, prohibited secondary boycotts, and purged unions of radicals (among other things). And so on and so forth.

So, the reason why so many of our unions are corrupt and don't give a **** about rank and file workers is not that they're inherently corrupt organizations, but that the state and capital, in the name of anti-communism and industrial stability, have squashed labor rights and labor democracy.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Well DUH, sit down strikes should be illegal. It's basically trespassing. Oh no, unions want ALL the power to run the country. Well boo hoo... deal with the consequences as well. Unions can be good things, but as long as the government doesn't bend over and let the unions **** the country up the ass.

[Ramo]

I'm just explaining why unions are as corrupt as they are. If you're fine with our labor laws, stop *****ing about their corruption, 'cuz those laws are directly responsible.

As for the legality of sit-down strikes, I'm just demonstrating the unreciprocal nature of labor relations between the actions of leadership and the actions of rank and file; actions by the rank and file - sit down strikes and wildcat strikes in general are unprotected, while union leaderships get their agreements enforced with minimal influence from those they represent.

[Dis]

Well in case anyone does not know, I am now a memeber of the local 501 union. I'm still an apprentice though. I will be 4 years as an apprentice and then become journeyman. But I get a $1.07/hr raise every 6 months. Right now I start at 60% of the normal Las Vegas strip (downtown and hospitals pay less) union rate. I will continue getting those raises until I make journeyman. And then we get no pay increases. Unless the union negotiates another contract. Our wages are stagnant. That's why I fail to see how people say we are demanding wages that exceed inflation.

Is the union good? well our union is a smaller union, and I don't see much corruption. Although we are loosely connected to the AFL-CIO I think. But that's only for the pension fund I believe. I'm still not sure of the setup.

but what I can say is the apprenticeship program is pretty good. They can really help train you. Getting engineering jobs at the casino with no experience is impossible. And it's not easy getting that experience.

Although some non union places like the Mirage actually pay their engineers higher than our union casinos do. I'm not sure if that includes a pension plan of any sort, and health coverage.

Now I'm union, I kind of feel obligated to vote democrat now . My union bulletin board has a few bad things to say about G.W. Bush. Although I find most of the guys I work with tend to be conservative.

So don't be dissing the local 501- or else!

[Dis]

Let's put it this way. The employers will always have the advantage in wage negotiations. They know you have to eat. If you refuse, there are 20 other applicants who can do the job just as well. The employer doesn't lose money to eat his next meal if he denies an applicant. but the applicant has to give in if he is hurting, and needs money to eat. This is real apparant if you look at the wages for the guys constructing the Hoover (Boulder) Dam.

Unions were essentual at the turn of the century (not this past turn of the century ). While they are more corrupt because they have grown so large, they still serve an important role.

I think they work best when not all jobs are union though. They work good in Las Vegas where some hotels are union, and some are not. That keeps the union from getting too out of control. They have to adjust their demands to the market. The only problem is most new hotels opening in Vegas are non-union . There isn't much future for unions anymore .

Unions can be bad when they have a monopoly-type position over a profession. Such as the teachers union. Although overall it is good the teachers have a union. But some of the things I've heard from them

[Dis]

Originally posted by Kontiki


Could not agree more.

In general, unions played an invaluable role in getting labour laws to where they are today (at least, in the west). They can still do some good, but I think in many instances they've become bureaucratic beasts.

Personally, I would never, ever, ever, EVER join a union. The single greatest problem with them, from my perspective, is that they almost singularly reward seniority over skill and competence. They also make it nearly impossible to fire someone for poor performance. The job protection they provide is obviously of more benefit to unskilled labour. For qualified, traditionally "white collar" workers who have ambitions beyond sitting in the same job for 35 years, they are a massive career anchor.

my last job was the same way. And it was non-union. I got pissed because I was the best worker they had, but I had some of the lowest wages. At least now all the union guys are making exactly the same hourly wage where I work.

Unions

[Dis]

dp

[Dis]

edited:

Proud member of the local 501 union

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Dissident
Unless the union negotiates another contract. Our wages are stagnant. That's why I fail to see how people say we are demanding wages that exceed inflation.

Exactly. That's my experience with unions too. Our pay increases were not extravagant, particularly compared to the increases given to managers

Besides, everyone wants to earn more money. We all would like a pay rise. Why condemn unions for asking what we all want.