The new Zen Touch: 24 hours battery life...

[Agathon]

he's saying not much has changed to make it anything more than what it was... and if you weren't impressed before, all the new additions are fairly unsubstantive, therefore, he's saying, "move along, there's nothing to see here"...

Sure. He notes some improvements and then goes on to say that the Zen Touch is a poor knockoff of the ipod. In other words, Creative Labs tried to make their player more like the ipod and came up with an inferior product.

He is not saying that the Zen Touch sucks because it is a copy of the ipod. He doesn't say that at all, rather he says, it sucks because it is an inferior copy (a knock off) of the ipod. That's what "knock off" means.

It's not my fault some people are incapable of reading plain English. The substance of the review is "Apple made the ipod better, but Creative screwed up the Zen Touch which is nothing more than an inferior copy of the ipod".

I'm not saying I agree with him, or that he is wrong: I merely posted the article to show that not everyone was enamoured of the Zen Touch. And that is what the article says.

With a powerful interface, you could pitch it as the power user's MP3 player. Without it, the Zen Touch just comes off as a slightly larger, slightly heavier IPod. Sure, it's $30 cheaper and it's got 24 hours of battery life. But that's not going to put a dent in IPod sales, is it? Especially not when people pick it up and realize it still uses pick-list commands for many of its functions. Looks a lot like a poor IPod knock-off, doesn't it?

What this means is that, in the absence of a better interface, the Zen Touch is nothing more than "a poor ipod knockoff". i.e. it's crappier.

That's what he says. The fact that Asher and his minions want to jump through hoops to make the article say the opposite of what it does is their problem.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
Why are you guys still fighting about this? There's no battle here. Apple's already won in market share, the only category that counts...

Apple has 30% marketshare in MP3 players.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Agathon
Sure. He notes some improvements and then goes on to say that the Zen Touch is a poor knockoff of the ipod. In other words, Creative Labs tried to make their player more like the ipod and came up with an inferior product.

He is not saying that the Zen Touch sucks because it is a copy of the ipod. He doesn't say that at all, rather he says, it sucks because it is an inferior copy (a knock off) of the ipod. That's what "knock off" means.

No, he says quite clearly that the original playlist system on the Zen was awesome. He then goes on to say in making the player easier to use (ie, dumbing down the feature set to match the iPod's), they ruined the best part of the Zen.

That's what he's saying, but it's not what you want to read.

What this means is that, in the absence of a better interface, the Zen Touch is nothing more than "a poor ipod knockoff". i.e. it's crappier.

That's what he says. The fact that Asher and his minions want to jump through hoops to make the article say the opposite of what it does is their problem.

No, Agathon, the problem is you simply completely lack reading comprehension skills for anything Apple-related, because your reality distortion field ****s it all up.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Is Agathon really serious? Did he blow a fuse somewhere? The guy obviously said that Creative is trying to be more like Apple and thus makes the new Zen worse than the old one, ie, Zen had better features before than the iPod. To read it any other way is to have blinders on.

He's a communist.

[Kuciwalker]

Actually looking at the article:

Still, the new IPods can't quite claim the title of perfect MP3 player. Codec support is limited to AAC, MP3, and Apple Lossless--so those of you with WMA, Ogg Vorbis, or FLAC files are out of luck. You still can't rearrange songs in a playlist; and there's nothing like the DJ feature on Rio's Karma player, which lets you build rules-based playlists on the go. Finally, a few corners have been cut to help trim prices. The 20GB model lacks a docking cradle, and neither model comes with the case and inline remote that shipped with older IPods. But both models ship with a USB 2.0 cable as well as a FireWire cable.

Emphasis mine; the italicized stuff is the same stuff Asher's been harping on since the Ipod came out.

At least Apple's player keeps getting better. I'm not sure I can say the same for Creative's offering. I took a brief look at the company's newest hard drive player, the 20GB Zen Touch. At $270, it seems like a step in the right direction. It's smaller. It has a nifty touchpad control that's easy to use. And I thought it would have the same ultra-powerful interface for selecting and playing songs.

See? The Zen used to have an "ultra-powerful interface for selecting and playing songs." Zen = ultra-powerful. Just like Asher's been saying since, well, forever.

Just to emphasize my point:

You might remember that a few months ago I went a little nuts (in a good way) over the playlist interface for Creative's Nomad Zen. I mean, I loved this thing. It absolutely changed the way I listen to music. The idea of an IPod-sized player with that interface had me drooling.

Hmm, seems Aggie is slightly pwned.

But no, Creative wanted to simplify things, to aim for the ease-of-use found in its IPod rivals. So with its latest player, there's no more moving songs around within a playlist. No more treating albums and artists as objects so you can collapse them for easy navigation or move a full album of tracks with a few clicks. Gone. Poof. No more. And no "advanced menus" option that brings these features back.

So it tries to be like the Ipod... and now it sucks!

[Agathon]

You guys are so desperate.

So it tries to be like the Ipod... and now it sucks!

Yes, because it is worse. As he says in his conclusion, and as you so conveniently omitted.

With a powerful interface, you could pitch it as the power user's MP3 player. Without it, the Zen Touch just comes off as a slightly larger, slightly heavier IPod. Sure, it's $30 cheaper and it's got 24 hours of battery life. But that's not going to put a dent in IPod sales, is it? Especially not when people pick it up and realize it still uses pick-list commands for many of its functions. Looks a lot like a poor IPod knock-off, doesn't it?

He is saying that, in its attempt to mimic the ipod and its ease of use, the ZT fails. He's not saying it is as good as the ipod, he is saying that it's worse.

I repeat: he says, the ZT is a poor knockoff of the ipod. ergo: it's worse.

That's what he says: no amount of jumping through hoops will change that.

Do you wish to dispute that he clearly says here that the Zen touch is a worse player (a cheaper knock off) of the ipod, or not? If you say no, then you are clearly refuted by the man's own words.

Everything else is irrelevant.

[Kuciwalker]

Yes, because it is worse.

He never said it was worse - he's only compared the changes. And you forget, at least before these changes, he said it was BETTER.

[Agathon]

He never said it was worse - he's only compared the changes.

He said it's a poor knockoff. And he said:

the Zen Touch just comes off as a slightly larger, slightly heavier IPod. Sure, it's $30 cheaper and it's got 24 hours of battery life. But that's not going to put a dent in IPod sales, is it? Especially not when people pick it up and realize it still uses pick-list commands for many of its functions.

ergo: the ipod is better.

And you forget, at least before these changes, he said it was BETTER.

OK - here's where you are going wrong. The Zen Touch is an entirely new product. He's talking about the interface of a different, previous model. He does think that the interface of the old one was better, but that speaks nothing as to its overall quality. It's quite clear that he thinks the ipod is better than the Zen Touch, whatever else he thinks.

[Asher]

You're a total loon.

ergo: the ipod is better.

What the hell kind of logic is this?

He says it "comes off" as a slightly larger, heaver iPod that's cheaper with a higher battery life. For one, that's the worst he says of it -- and even that doesn't say the iPod is better. Further, his only complaint about the player is the firmware, which is sure to be fixed since it's simple software that Creative has already developed...

It's clear to EVERYONE that he prefers the Zens, and his entire point AGAINST the Zen in this article is how it's trying to be like the iPod, to the point where they removed its main distinguishing feature (relegating it to "come off" (note the wording...that doesn't mean it IS, it says "come off as"), a slightly larger, slightly heavier iPod.

Seriously, are you just trolling? Or do you honestly believe what you're saying?

[Agathon]

No, I'm reading what he says, and that is that the Zen Touch (whatever one might think of the other models) is nothing more than a cheap knock off of the ipod. It tries to be like the ipod and fails. That's the whole point of the comparison in the last paragraph, and the point of the article. Creative tried to make an ipod, but it sucks compared to the real one.

But that's not going to put a dent in IPod sales, is it? Especially not when people pick it up and realize it still uses pick-list commands for many of its functions.

i.e. its interface sucks.

Looks a lot like a poor IPod knock-off, doesn't it?

This is, as any intelligent person could see, a rhetorical question.

And you can drop the 2nd grade semantics as well.

It's clear to EVERYONE that he prefers the Zens

He prefers the interface, but he also prefers some things from other players, like the ipod's click wheel (this is in the other article).

I'm sorry you aren't able to read what the man says, but that's not my fault. I guess they don't teach you to read English too good at your skule.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Agathon


No, I'm reading what he says, and that is that the Zen Touch (whatever one might think of the other models) is nothing more than a cheap knock off of the ipod. It tries to be like the ipod and fails. That's the whole point of the comparison in the last paragraph, and the point of the article. Creative tried to make an ipod, but it sucks compared to the real one.

And that was his point -- Creative's players before kicked ass, and he said Creative was moving in the wrong direction in making their player more like the iPod.

Use those incredible powers of deduction, Agathon, what is he trying to say?

I notice he spent quite a bit of the article praising the original Zen software, and virtually none of it praising the iPod, just saying it got slightly better in the new version.

You drew your conclusion from your ass.

He prefers the interface, but he also prefers some things from other players, like the ipod's click wheel (this is in the other article).

I'm sorry you aren't able to read what the man says, but that's not my fault. I guess they don't teach you to read English too good at your skule.

Actually, you just said right here that the part you're talking about was not in the article we're talking about. Clearly, it's not my reading skills that suffer, but your assumption that I am telepathic.

I saw a fat, balding man with a goatee driving a rusting minivan on the way home, and slightly off-center on the top of the rear window was an Apple logo. I immediately thought of you.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Aggie is so utterly pathetic, it almost isn't funny.

And he teaches? My, my

[Agathon]

I actually read the article. You are so blinded by prejudice that it appears you can no longer read written English. Believe what you like, I couldn't care less.

The article clearly says that, in the view of the reviewer, the Zen Touch is inferior to the ipod. That's what it says. It doesn't say that it is as bad, it says that it is an inferior knock off. That's all I am claiming - I couldn't care less about the rest. It has nothing to do with the fact that the reviewer thinks that the Zen Touch is an inferior (not equivalent, inferior) copy of the ipod.

So please enrol yourself in grade 3 English and save the world the trouble of having to explain things to you because of your poor literacy.

[Tingkai]

Does anyone here own a 4th gen iPod or the Zen Touch?

[mrmitchell]

The article clearly says that, in the view of the reviewer, the Zen Touch is inferior to the ipod.

No, no, no. We're really working on an N-TIER architecture, here.