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  • #61
    I agree on most. However:

    Originally posted by *End Is Forever*
    Now I've no doubt that there are moderates within the Muslim Association of Britain, but that doesn't distract from the fact that they're largely strictly small-c conservative Islamists who most left-wing groups would decry for their positions on abortion and women's rights amongst a host of others. There are also strong allegations of links of some of their senior members to the far more sinister Muslim Brotherhood, an Egyptian-originated fundamentalist sect.
    I thought the Muslim Association of Britain was strongly against terrorism, etc, and had been criticised by the extremists for it? Unless the Muslim Council is not associated with the Muslim Association?

    I agree George Galloway is someone out for himself, lacking in many principles, and also an extremist. I also agree some of their followers may be anti-semetic (much in the way many pro-Israel supporters are anti-Arab). However characterising the party as that, when it is clearly anti-Israel, not anti-semetic, in the most part, is a little far, IMHO. I'm anti-Israel, as are the majority of Britons, according to televised and newspaper polls I've seen when it was an major news issue. It doesn't mean we have anything against Jews, just against the way the way Israel is run.

    Respect just seems be to a backlash against Bush and Blair, and will die down soon. I can't see them ever doing much. They might get some disaffected people voting, but they won't get any seats. People wanting to protest about the war are more likely to go Lib Dem, though these being local and Euro elections, I doubt many will vote purely on that.
    Smile
    For though he was master of the world, he was not quite sure what to do next
    But he would think of something

    "Hm. I suppose I should get my waffle a santa hat." - Kuciwalker

    Comment


    • #62
      I doubt many will vote
      eimi men anthropos pollon logon, mikras de sophias

      Comment


      • #63
        Drogue,

        Ok, I'll bite. Hypocritical on what issue?
        Where to start?

        GM Crops

        LibDem Post Office Policy

        "But we are increasingly coming to the view that a privatised Post Office – with a USO and a regulator – on Dutch lines could have a better chance of succeeding than the present structure" (page 16)

        LibDems On Post Office "Modernisation" I
        LibDems On Post Office "Modernisation" II
        LibDems On Post Office "Modernisation" III
        LibDems On Post Office "Modernisation" IV

        LibDems anti-war?

        Newly unearthed extensive video evidence that I have received on my latest visit to the region shows collaboration between Saddam Hussein (on video) and a leader of an international terrorist organisation. Masoud Rajavi, leader of the MKO, is shown with Saddam Hussein discussing various actions locally, domestically and internationally. They are shown plotting and money being given in payment for services rendered and in payment for services to be rendered, which are discussed very explicitly. The evidence clearly shows international terrorist organisational work between Saddam Hussein and outside organisations. Another set of videos shows collaboration between international terrorist organisations and the head of the Iraq secret police. - Baroness Nicholson MEP

        The myth of Mr Kennedy's opposition to the war

        Funding:

        Liberal Democrats claim that they're "not funded by big business": "The campaign of Michael Howard will, like that of the Conservative Party, be bankrolled by big business... The campaign to beat Michael Howard however does not rely donations from big business, but rather the support of members, supporters and individuals who know the impact that ousting Michael Howard at the next General Electino would make" (Help Beat Howard)

        Reality: LibDems get funding from big businesses like McDonalds Hamburgers, Manchester Airport, Independent News & Media, Bloomberg UK, Robert Rhodes Ltd and Tesco. Look it up.

        Need I carry on?
        Visit the Vote UK Discussion Forum!

        Comment


        • #64
          Drogue, you might want to read The Stop The War Coalition, the Muslim Assocation of Britain, and Anti-Semetism. It's written by an anti-war protestor who became disillusioned with the STW coalition, and not by the usual suspects. Take a browse around the site generally, it's excellent.
          Visit the Vote UK Discussion Forum!

          Comment


          • #65
            GM Crops
            Answered in UKIP thread. Welcome to continue the discussion here, if you wish, to keep it to one thread.

            LibDem Post Office Policy
            Yep, so the Lib Dems see a regulated and privitised Post Office, as the best system. Take that as official policy.

            LibDems On Post Office "Modernisation" I
            About Lib Dem and Tory councillors campaigning against Labour's policy of Post Office closures, especially in Birmingham. Doesn't go against official policy. A different bias, sure, but then from an individual, not official Lib Dem policy.

            LibDems On Post Office "Modernisation" II
            Doesn't mention Lib Dems once. If you mean the MP mentioned happens to be a Lib Dem (which the article doesn't state. Is he?), then here's his quote:
            I naturally want to see all the post offices saved. But in several cases the postmasters want to quit because of falling business and the offer of compensation - and they can't be forced to stay open
            Pretty much in line with party policy. Doesn't mention privitisation, but hints at it, at free market in action.

            LibDems On Post Office "Modernisation" III
            Lib Dems critising Labour closures, again.

            LibDems On Post Office "Modernisation" IV
            More Lib Dems against Labour closures.

            So, the Lib Dems are in favour of privitising and regulating the Post Office, against Labour's policy of closing 3000 Post Offices, but admit that if a postmaster wants to retire, they're not going to force them to stay open. Pretty balanced view, IMHO.

            LibDems anti-war?

            Newly unearthed extensive video evidence that I have received on my latest visit to the region shows collaboration between Saddam Hussein (on video) and a leader of an international terrorist organisation. Masoud Rajavi, leader of the MKO, is shown with Saddam Hussein discussing various actions locally, domestically and internationally. They are shown plotting and money being given in payment for services rendered and in payment for services to be rendered, which are discussed very explicitly. The evidence clearly shows international terrorist organisational work between Saddam Hussein and outside organisations. Another set of videos shows collaboration between international terrorist organisations and the head of the Iraq secret police. - Baroness Nicholson MEP
            So a Lib Dem MEP admits that Saddam may have had some connections to terrorists in some states. I think we all knew that. I admit he probably did, I admit he was an appauling dictator. Doesn't mean I support a war for his removal though.

            The myth of Mr Kennedy's opposition to the war

            Ok, let me quote that article about Charles Kennedy:
            Charles Kennedy did not oppose the war - not even when he addressed the anti-war rally in Hyde Park in February 2003. He spoke of "real concerns" and the "powerlessness" of "vast numbers of people" to whom Tony Blair "must listen". But he didn't say, as the Green MEP Caroline Lucas said at the same rally, that the war would be illegal, unjust and counter-productive. Indeed Kennedy said on the party website at the time: "We are not the all-out anti-war party. I believe that the United Nations is the proper place to make the decisions."
            Wow, so he didn't directly state, like the French position, that war would be bad in any event. He stated that he wanted the UN to decide, and that there was "no compelling argument [for war] at the present time." Just because he has a more balanced view that some extreme anti-war protestors, does not mean he is not anti-war. He wanted the UN to decide, as he continually says.

            As the article says, the Lib Dems voted against the war. However, once we went to war, they admitted that pulling troops out immediately wasn't an option. Once in, even though they didn't want us to be, we now had a responsibility and needed to see it through. Sure, a raving Greenie like the writer of the article won't think they go far enough, but I agree completely with their position:
            1 - The war was a bad idea.
            2 - With UN backing and proof of Iraq's weapons (legitimacy) there would be a compelling case for war.
            3 - Once we're in, we have a responsibility to see our commitments through.

            Funding:

            Liberal Democrats claim that they're "not funded by big business": "The campaign of Michael Howard will, like that of the Conservative Party, be bankrolled by big business... The campaign to beat Michael Howard however does not rely donations from big business, but rather the support of members, supporters and individuals who know the impact that ousting Michael Howard at the next General Electino would make" (Help Beat Howard)

            Reality: LibDems get funding from big businesses like McDonalds Hamburgers, Manchester Airport, Independent News & Media, Bloomberg UK, Robert Rhodes Ltd and Tesco. Look it up.
            Ok, a small, local Lib Dem campaign says it's not supported by big business, unlike Michael Howard's campaign. The Lib Dems, as every party, have donations from business. Can you see the distinction? The "campaign to beat Michael Howard" is not funded by big business. The Lib Dems nationally are, in part. A smaller part than the Tories, too.

            Moreover, look down that list. Look at the big amounts, those donations over £10,000. What do you notice? All but one or two are from individuals, and those from companies are non that I recognise as large companies. Sure, Tesco gave them just over £1000. A tiny percent. Most of their money seems to come from individuals. Therefore, the Lib Dem campaign "does not rely donations from big business", even though it gets a few small donations from them.

            So there we have it. None of those involve hypocracy. Sure, the party speaks with different voices, it has many different members, and that's to be expected. At least they don't try to force vote like the Tories to try to cover their differing views on some issues. However hypocrites, they are not.
            Smile
            For though he was master of the world, he was not quite sure what to do next
            But he would think of something

            "Hm. I suppose I should get my waffle a santa hat." - Kuciwalker

            Comment


            • #66
              Not British, BNP!

              Comment


              • #67
                Ok, a small, local Lib Dem campaign says it's not supported by big business, unlike Michael Howard's campaign
                I think you'll find that any anti-Howard campaign, especially one like that, finds sanction from the very top...
                Visit the Vote UK Discussion Forum!

                Comment


                • #68
                  Whether or not they find support from the top, their funding, as they stated, is not big business. Also, looking at Tory support, they have a £1 million, and many above £10,000, from companies. The Lib Dems don't. So even if that comment were about the overall Lib Dem campaign, which it isn't, it would be partly right. They don't rely in big business for support, Tories do. I don't see why that's such a bad thing, but that is the case. Whether or not it has sanction at the top (which I'm sure it does), the overall Lib Dem campaign wasn't what that statement was about.

                  I'm surprised he's staying there for the next elections. Removing him isn't the hugest of tasks either, given the relative marginality of the seat. It would hurt the Tories dearly to lose him, possibly even to 3rd party status.
                  Smile
                  For though he was master of the world, he was not quite sure what to do next
                  But he would think of something

                  "Hm. I suppose I should get my waffle a santa hat." - Kuciwalker

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    There's no chance of Howard losing in Hythe. Since Howard became leader there have been two council by-elections in Shepway, both in Howard's constituency, both Tory gains from Liberal Democrats with gigantic swings. Even weak party leaders have seen their majorities improved (Hague's went up in 2001 notably, Major's bucked the trend in 1997, look at Ashdown's majority in Yeovil over the course of his Parliamentary career...). "Howard might lose" makes good PR for the LibDems, but it isn't going to happen.

                    Imagine the publicity for us if our leader decided to chicken-run, anyway!
                    Visit the Vote UK Discussion Forum!

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                    • #70
                      True. It is very unlikely. Would make good publicity, but he's a good politician, and someone who can banter with Blair at PMQs, so it's good TV too. Oh well, we should still make some good gains in the Euro elections, and maybe a council gain or two

                      Looks like this poll is turning overwhelmingly yellow too
                      Smile
                      For though he was master of the world, he was not quite sure what to do next
                      But he would think of something

                      "Hm. I suppose I should get my waffle a santa hat." - Kuciwalker

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        I am British but I am not voting (because they won't let me )

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Why won't they let you?
                          Smile
                          For though he was master of the world, he was not quite sure what to do next
                          But he would think of something

                          "Hm. I suppose I should get my waffle a santa hat." - Kuciwalker

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            I just moved and I didn't have time to get registered. (I would have voted Lim Dem though.)

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Drogue
                              Oh well, we should still make some good gains in the Euro elections, and maybe a council gain or two
                              It would be difficult for the LibDems not to make gains at least in terms of vote share this time, your result in 1999 for derisory, far worse than I thought it'd been.
                              Visit the Vote UK Discussion Forum!

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Rogan Josh
                                I just moved and I didn't have time to get registered. (I would have voted Lim Dem though.)
                                You should be registered at your old address, then...?
                                Visit the Vote UK Discussion Forum!

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