Canadian Election: It's On

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by joncha
A Liberal incumbent that won by a grand total of 45 votes over the Alliance candidate in the last election.

I'd put money on a conservative cakewalk this time out.

I'll bet you wouldn't have put money on 2 Tory seats in '93, although you would have liked to.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Into this mix, you site one of the lowest tax jurisdictions in Canada, and suggest that everything would be hunky-dory if we started jacking tax rates while everyone else we compete against is lowering theirs.

Quebec has a much lower corporate tax rate (8.9%)compared to Alberta (12.5% general).

Which economy is doing better?

Utah has a lower tax rate than California. Are all businesses leaving California?

Businesses always scream that the sky will fall if we raise the corporate tax rate. But we know it doesn't happen.

Where are some of the most expensive places to do business: New York, London, Hong Kong. All three are major international business cities.

Corporate tax rates have been cut in the past decade. Are we that better off. No.

The fact is that we can raise corporate taxes and still have a healthy economy.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
We are already paying through the nose for these politicians. We might as well put them to work.

So the solution to making the federal government more efficient is to add another layer of bureaucracy? You believe that politicians are doing enough work so your solution is to create more of them?


Creating an elected senate will simply slow down the process.

More than that, as the American system shows, a senate would not end up being a club for the rich. To get elected to the US senate costs something like $7 million on average. For congress the cost is $700,000.

And let's say you have two senators from BC under an elected senate system. How well would a senator from Vancouver be able to represent Prince George or the Peace River area? Not very well.

And who would they look after. The area that has the most votes which means Vancouver would get beneficial treatment over a place like Cranbrook.

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Besides, like any good NDPer, why don't you support a larger bureaucracy alongside those higher taxes? Big can be beautiful.

You got to learn to drop your assumptions. Maybe you should take a closer look at what the NDP stands for and then you would see why your assumptions are wrong.

[Wezil]

The only significant info regarding the NDP would be their 'price' for minority support. The majority of the platform is irrelevant (even if you did believe them) as the NDP will never form the national government.

Btw - What the heck is "New" about the NDP? They have been parading the same socialist mantra for 40 years now. Time for a change in name and policy.

[Wezil]

Did anyone else see this?

Sat, May 29, 2004


Clark, McLellan: They had it made

Greg Weston learns of a secret plot by the Tories and Liberals to rig key ridings in 2000 election

By Greg Weston




JUST WHEN it seemed federal politics couldn't get any sleazier, Sun Media has learned that a group of powerful Tory and Liberal backroom operatives secretly conspired to bolster the Grit national campaign and skew the results in a number of ridings in the last federal election. Two weeks before Jean Chretien called the country to the polls in October 2000, reliable sources say, a small group of top Tory officials cut a secret deal to help Chretien's ultimately successful national campaign for a third majority government.

In return, the Liberals agreed to throw the vote in the Calgary Centre riding of then Tory leader Joe Clark.

In what may have been a series of similar deals, sources say the Tories also agreed to "stand down" to help Liberal Deputy Prime Minister Anne McLellan hang on to her Edmonton seat, which she won by only 733 votes.

Sources refuse to divulge details of what, exactly, the Tories agreed to do for the Liberals. One would say only that the deal "without question, helped them (the Liberals) nationally.

'GOT WHAT THEY WANTED'

"They got what they wanted ... They were able to do some things right away (in the campaign) that they otherwise couldn't have done. The benefit to them was far beyond Calgary. The election was effectively over after the first week."

If a backroom pact got McLellan elected in 2000, she is in dire trouble this time around as Liberal popularity tanks in Alberta.

With the Liberals and Tories splitting much the same vote in 2000, all the national PC organization had to do to help McLellan was nothing.

A strong Conservative candidate supported by the national party could well have stripped away the 734 Liberal votes from McLellan that would have given the riding to the Canadian Alliance candidate, Betty Unger.

Instead, the Tories acclaimed Rory Koopermans to run, a then 25-year-old political neophyte with almost no money or organization.

'THAT'S JUST TERRIBLE'

Koopermans says he knew nothing of any backroom deal, and that he campaigned hard, even though he had "absolutely no chance" of winning and got barely 6% of the votes cast.

But he does admit he got no financial or organizational help from the national party, and not even an encouraging phone call from the Tory leadership.

"If that happened," Koopermans said of the deal, "that's just terrible. It's wrong."

A reliable source with direct knowledge of the arrangement affecting Clark's riding and the Liberal national campaign said "very, very few people knew of this -- like fewer than the fingers on my one hand."

The senior officials involved in the deal deliberately told neither Clark nor McLellan anything about it, ensuring the politicians could not be blamed if the story leaked into the media.

The source would not divulge specifics of the deal, only that it was "fairly straightforward and it was honoured on both sides."

Clark had entered the campaign with abysmal polling numbers pointing to an almost certain defeat.

Instead, the former Tory leader won by 4,304 votes after a bizarre campaign in which a group called "Liberals for Clark" suddenly popped up from nowhere to back him.

With a week to go in the campaign, an Ipsos-Reid poll showed former Liberal supporters were stampeding to Clark. Grit candidate Joanne Levy won only 17% of the vote on election day.

Levy vigorously denies she was part of any plot to throw the vote, and says she knew little of the mysterious group of "Liberals" who came to the Tory leader's rescue.

It is impossible to say how much all these backroom deals changed the outcome of the election. Perhaps McLellan, Clark and dozens of other candidates had their fates sealed by a backroom handshake two weeks before the election even started.

We will never know.

Does explain a few things....

[Flinx]

That is the biggest load of bull****.

...And they flew around in black helicopters with psychics convincing thousands of people to vote differently than how they would have otherwise

[Wezil]

Joe did win with the 'gay' vote. Unusual for a conservative - no?

[joncha]

Sun Media has learned...

'nuff said.

[Wezil]

Always nice to shoot the messenger. Perhaps you would find it more palatable if it came from the Liberal Party organ known as the Toronto Star?

[Asher]

Originally posted by Wezil
Joe did win with the 'gay' vote. Unusual for a conservative - no?

Joe Clark.

I think he got a raw deal in Canada, and I think he's one of the few politicians with integrity we have left. He was a true progressive conservative, not the hog**** we have now.

[joncha]

Originally posted by Wezil
Always nice to shoot the messenger. Perhaps you would find it more palatable if it came from the Liberal Party organ known as the Toronto Star?

Anything that's not a tabloid, yes. Or should I start posting "news" sources from Socialist Worker?

Don't shoot the messenger!

[Wezil]

If you aren't after the messenger take issue with the post. What is unbelievable to you?

I will confess, I would like something more than a 'reliable source' but the story is still early. I'm prepared to see how it plays out.

[joncha]

Originally posted by Flinx
That is the biggest load of bull****.

...And they flew around in black helicopters with psychics convincing thousands of people to vote differently than how they would have otherwise

[Wezil]

...and another knee jerk reaction...

[notyoueither]

I can very well believe the Tories and Liberals did a deal to swap McLellan's and Clark's ridings. Deals between parties are nothing new and there is nothing wrong with them. You have to remember that the people to beat in those ridings were CA candidates.

The article goes into yellow country with the allusions to 'dozens of other candidates' without anything to back it up.

I'm not sure if the Liberals for Clark had anything to do with it. A lot of Albertans were very happy that we returned a few non-CA MPs. For Liberals in his riding, the choice between Clark and the CA candidate might have been an easy one.