Americans bring enlightenment and progress to Iraq

[East Street Trader]

The torture proposition looks to be an empty piece of rubbish.

But anyone who thinks soldiers of any nationality under the sun (now or ever) can engage in fire fights in cities without a considerable measure of brutality is daft.

There seem to be honourable exceptions though.

An account I read in the Times to-day struck me. It is about a soldier who was told by his comanding officer that he had been awarded the Military Cross - for gallant and distinguished service in battle - following his involvement in an action in Iraq. Aparently the man was particularly excited by this as an MC had not been awarded to anyone in his battalion for almost 40 years.

But sadly he died the next day - from a brain haemorage unconnected with his army service.

Anyway the thing that struck me was this. The incident in which he won the MC took place in the small town of al-Tannunah where Sgt Major Leigh found himself and his men under attack, initially from a crowd of Iraqis throwing stones and bricks, and then by gunmen in the crowd.

Fire was returned and the Sgt Major ordered his men to take cover. But he realised that they were isolated and unlikely to be reinforced so he called on his men to advance and despite being wounded in the legs by shrapnel from a grenade he led his men in a baton charge which dispelled the crowd.

Which is the point. It was a baton charge.

That seems to me galant indeed.

If I were led by such a man at such a time I believe some part of the gratitude I would owe him would be for helping me avoid participating in the indiscriminate slaughter of the Iraqis in that crowd as well as for extracting me alive from such a frightening situation.

I am all for feeling sympathy for the Iraqis. And a Frenchman is bound to be reminded of the dark days when his own country was under the occupation of foreignors.

But let us not badmouth men like Sgt Major Leigh without a rather better basis than is set out in this article.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by GePap


Yes, so the IDF could have done the searches themselves. UNless of course Sharon and the generals could not have gived a damn if Palestinian civilians got killed or not, and thus let their cronies do the work.

I think weve gone over that incident on this forum before. We're now getting away from the point of the thread. Guevera is very good at threadjacking, no?

[Evil Knevil]

Originally posted by Yef



No. We should force democracy on them,

The Arab world have to be rebuilt, for their own sake.

Islam have failed to modernize like Christianism and Judaism did. We have to make them do.
Otherwise the suffering will continue forever.

Because of course we're morally superior to them all.

I don't know about you, but enforced democracy seems a bit of an oxymoron.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Do you believe its true?

I believe there are isolated occurences of torture performed by soldiers or low-ranking officers, yes. I don't think it is actively encouraged by the higher ranking officiers though, so it is not on the same systematic level as in the battle of Algiers (:vomit: ) or the German occupation of France.

We are talking about soldiers who have seen their own being burned and hanged to bridges by an overjoyed crowd. We are talking about soldiers who have good reasons to fear for their life everytime they venture in the city. OF COURSE they are able to behave like beasts - that's what the combo of hatred + survival instinct results in.

[GePap]

Well, "we" (the US) started the violence in the first place by invading. After that, rebellion against a non-democratic regime (which is what our occupation is) is at least understandable, specially in a place looking to lose out under the change in regime.

This is what we should have seen coming all along. That it got this bad in Fallujah is a failure of earlier policy.

Yes, lets remember who's fault this is.

[Drake Tungsten]

Americans bring enlightenment and progress to Iraq

Did you really expect otherwise?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Spiffor

I believe there are isolated occurences of torture performed by soldiers or low-ranking officers, yes.


OF COURSE they are able to behave like beasts - that's what the combo of hatred + survival instinct results in.

Everything I have read quoting US Marines in Falujah shows steely determination, and a determinination to distinguish innocent civilians from the the insurgents. NOT a generalized hatred.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Everything I have read quoting US Marines in Falujah shows steely determination, and a determinination to distinguish innocent civilians from the the insurgents. NOT a generalized hatred.

There is no telling the ecchymosed ones weren't rebels. Or at least, "suspected" of detaining info. In Algiers, pretty much all the tortured were "suspected" of having info. And torture was felt as needed to avoid the death of innocent people getting blown up in terror attacks.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by GePap
. After that, rebellion against a non-democratic regime (which is what our occupation is) is at least understandable, specially in a place looking to lose out under the change in regime.
.

And Sistani, Chalabi et al are pushing for earlier elections. Do you have any evidence that the insurgents in Fallujah are interested in earlier elections?? All evidence I see is that they are not, and are interested in avoiding any elections whatsoever - so the "non-democratic regime" is a red herring.


BTW, there are numerous reports of large numbers of foreign fighters among the insurgents in Fallujah.

[Yef]

Originally posted by Evil Knevil


Because of course we're morally superior to them all.

Yes we are!
We don't call jihads to exterminate other people, we don't send our youngs with explosive belts to blow school buses, we don't persecute minorities, we don';t prohibit other religions, we don't kill girls for becoming pregnant while being single, and we don't flight planes into civilian buildings.

Originally posted by Evil Knevil

I don't know about you, but enforced democracy seems a bit of an oxymoron.

It have to be forced because if you let them on their own, the mullahs and their petty dictators will remain in power forever.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Spiffor

There is no telling the ecchymosed ones weren't rebels.

There's also no telling if they even exist.

[Whaleboy]

Yes we are!
We don't call jihads to exterminate other people, we don't send our youngs with explosive belts to blow school buses, we don't persecute minorities, we don';t prohibit other religions, we don't kill girls for becoming pregnant while being single, and we don't flight planes into civilian buildings.

Firstly, we do persecute minorities and most of the areas where we are different are somewhat like mere trifles. Nonetheless, how do these differences make the West superior? Really I'm interested

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Spiffor

There is no telling the ecchymosed ones weren't rebels. Or at least, "suspected" of detaining info. In Algiers, pretty much all the tortured were "suspected" of having info. And torture was felt as needed to avoid the death of innocent people getting blown up in terror attacks.

But its generally believed today that torture tends to get you bad info. Better info is obtained through alternative interrogation techniques, and this is widely known in the US military. If he had accused the US military of using sleep deprivation, psychological pressure, etc I might beleive him. What is accused is simply not credible, IMHO.

The US occupation in Iraq is NOT the French occupation in Algeria.

[GePap]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


And Sistani, Chalabi et al are pushing for earlier elections. Do you have any evidence that the insurgents in Fallujah are interested in earlier elections?? All evidence I see is that they are not, and are interested in avoiding any elections whatsoever - so the "non-democratic regime" is a red herring.

I am sorry but this is weak. 1: unless you can show me a poll of the sunni triangle, your first general statement was nothing more than a BAM. Second, the simple FACTS are that currently IRaq is under the rule of a non-elected Occupation authority selected by the US. You can;t possible argue that that is not the current form of government. The justification for the inavsion and occupation do NOT undo the fact a country was invaded and occupied by a foreign power- well, when that happens you get resistance sometimes. It was all foreseable.

BTW, there are numerous reports of large numbers of foreign fighters among the insurgents in Fallujah.

There are reports of large numbers of foreign soldiers on the occupation authorities's side: the US Marines.

Please, you can do better than these weak generalizations and boiler-plate messages.

[East Street Trader]

LotM

Is it altogether surprizing to find that US marines describe their own actions in glowiing terms?

Or any more surprising that an occupied people think ill of - and speak badly of - the occupiers.

The most surprising thing of all would be if the truth lay wholly with either the one or the other.

The Times carried an account a week or two back of one particularly troubled area where a ban was placed on the local populace entering. The reporter set out one conversation between two GIs discussing a man who was seen walking in this area. They agreed that his having a hand in his pockets was suspicious and they then shot him dead with no compunction. Shortly afterwards a local came into his garden for the obvious - if weird - intention of tending it. The soldiers thought this guy was funny and he got a warning shot. At which (happily) he scutled back inside. But had he not done so he too was going to die.

The reporter had no doubt the soldiers were inured to what they were doing and it was clear that it was in line with what their commanders considered necessary there at that time.

This was not an account from anyone with any apparent reason to be biased and had no junk in it comparable to the article which starts this thread.

Put those particular soldiers in a fire fight with their blood up and I am afraid that to hope for a steely determination to distinguish innocent civilians is to hope for the moon.