Americans bring enlightenment and progress to Iraq

[GePap]

I believe he is talking about the 1996 incident in southern Lebanon.

Also, Israel was in full control of letting people in and out of Sabra and Shatilla-why and Israeli enquiry found Sharon indirectly responsible for those killings.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Yef
Hey, and why is this happening ONLY in that town?
Because they have been killing anyone that drives by, because the shoot at any coalition vehicle in the area.
Fallujah is terrorist nest, and it is so because the local population supports them and hide them when coalition forces appear.

So did the people of Oradour sur Glane (see my 2nd post). They harbors resistors terrorists. They deserved to be burned to death.

That's the Arab way of lies.
They always claim to be the victims of injustices. They forget all that they do, all that they begin but fail to finish, and they forget all the injustice and suffering they have caused to other people.

Do you think these refugees have killed Americans?

And what about the millions of Berbers in North Africa that resisted the Arab onslaught for centuries? Their language and culture are largely outlawed today. Millions in Black Africa have died resisting this forced Arabization, as well, and the fight continues in Sudan with millions of Blacks having been killed, maimed, enslaved, turned into refugees and the like.

I guess this justifies bombing any "suspicious" building, killing everyone within.

For the Arabs, if you are not Arab, you are a dog, and they will use you, manipulate you, and learn how to speak to you with words of peace to convince you of their "plight", to receive your support, untill you become unnecessary. Then they will cut your throat for being an infidel if you resist, or make you a serf if you submit.

For them, we are only dhimmies. For them, theirs is the only justice.

And for you, yours is the only justice as well. Don't you see your posts reek of ethnocentrism, thinking YOUR side and right, and THEIR side is wrong?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by GePap
While Spiff might be too emotionally invested, to think many civilians are not getting killed in Fallujah given the Amount of firepower the US is using is silly.

Also, on Jenin, no one said thousands, they said hundreds at the time (like 500 I believe). The Iraqi ministry of health (you know, our guys) was reporting well over 600 killed in Fallujah after the first week or so. Unless we believe US appointees have a reason to make things up against their overlords (nice word...), then the statements of significant civilian dead in Fallujah is very believeable.

1. The iraqi ministry of health is independent. I dont buy that theyre "puppets"

2. IIRC the Ministry of Health said total killed, not just civilians. Their has been continued confusion and controversy about whether any given dead is a civilian or a fighter. This is aggravated by the fighters practice of not wearing uniforms, and of deliberately feigning civilian status as a strategy.

In the case of the mosque that was attacked several weeks ago, the initial reports said that it was packed with worshippers. It later came out that it was being used as a firebase, and that Marines were being fired on from it.

And Yef is correct - in Fallujah, at least, the local muslim clergy seem to be aligned with the insurgency, and may well be coordinating the propaganda campaign.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by GePap
While Spiff might be too emotionally invested

Yep.

As a European, I tend to have easy triggers on this issue. Because yes, these testimonies are highly believables, because occupations are ugly. Always (I almost titled this thread "Yes, occupations are ugly", but I chose a more trollish one in the end). And this is a reality most Americans prefer not to hear about.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by GePap
I believe he is talking about the 1996 incident in southern Lebanon.

Also, Israel was in full control of letting people in and out of Sabra and Shatilla-why and Israeli enquiry found Sharon indirectly responsible for those killings.

yeah - they let them in with the understanding that they would search the place for fighters - you see the PLO DID hide fighters in refugee camps. Sharon was indirectly responsible cause it was held that he should have been more aware of the rage among the Phalangists.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by GePap
While Spiff might be too emotionally invested,

Might be?

Anyway, I actually believe that there are regretable instances of collatteral damage going on. I just don't see any signifigant reason to believe the accounts that Spiffor is posting as gospel.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Yef
For them, we are only dhimmies. For them, theirs is the only justice.

I guess we should just kill them all then.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Spiffor

And this is a reality most Americans prefer not to hear about.

BS, spiffor. US media have daily reports from Fallujah, and Najaf these days. Youd think the rest of Iraq had suddenly fallen off the face of the earth. Hardly any stories about Kurdistan, about the parts of the south that are quiet. The US is revelling in the ugliness, not avoiding it.

Oh, the NYT DID have a story the other day about how the Shiites in Najaf were increasingly resenting Al Sadr. But that was a pretty significant finding, I think.

[GePap]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


yeah - they let them in with the understanding that they would search the place for fighters - you see the PLO DID hide fighters in refugee camps. Sharon was indirectly responsible cause it was held that he should have been more aware of the rage among the Phalangists.

Yes, so the IDF could have done the searches themselves. UNless of course Sharon and the generals could not have gived a damn if Palestinian civilians got killed or not, and thus let their cronies do the work.

[lord of the mark]

He has seen young people whose legs and thorax were full of ecchymoses, a sign the Americans are torturing people there

Spiffor, this isnt an accusation of negligence, or collateral damage. This is an accusationof deliberate torture.


This is VERY SERIOUS. If this is true, than the USMC is commiting WAR CRIMES of the most serious kind.

Do you believe its true?

If its a lie, than it calls into the question the credibility of the entire article, IMHO.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Oh, the NYT DID have a story the other day about how the Shiites in Najaf were increasingly resenting Al Sadr. But that was a pretty significant finding, I think.

Good, I hope they'll kick his bastard ass. And I hope this will be done by Iraqis wanting stability, rather than by Americans going all guns blzing.

[Az]

But, of course, we all'd rather be rich and healthy, than poor, and sick. But this is trivial. What if you have no choice.

[Yef]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


I guess we should just kill them all then.

No. We should force democracy on them, ban any political party with links to terrorism, and create a middle class that benefits from this system.

The Arab world have to be rebuilt, for their own sake.

Islam have failed to modernize like Christianism and Judaism did. We have to make them do.
Otherwise the suffering will continue forever.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Spiffor

Good, I hope they'll kick his bastard ass. And I hope this will be done by Iraqis wanting stability, rather than by Americans going all guns blzing.

BTW, in Fallujah the US has set up joint patrols with Iraqis. The US has gone in in force ONLY in those sections of the city too dangerous for that.

[The diplomat]

First, a lot of these reports are unconfirmed or outright false.

Second, the terrorists and insurgents hide in mosques, civilian centers and use women and chidlren as human shields. They are the ones to blame for the violence.

let's put the blame where it belongs, on the terrorists and insurgents that are endangering the lives of innocent civilians and that started the violence in the first place.