Americans bring enlightenment and progress to Iraq

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Spiffor

Those are refugees answering a French journalist. Propaganda implies an organised and systematised attempt at bringing information, foten orchestrated by an organization (government). I strongly doubt these refugees have been briefed to tell coherent lies to journalists.


Well, sure, this woman only lost three of her relatives, the refugees only saw corspes piling in their streets, they only saw bombed houses with corpses in the rubble. What's the fuss about?

are you familiar with the propaganda campaign related to Jenin? thousands of civilians, killed. Until it was found that only dozens of civilians were killed.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Spiffor

I believe they are self-righteous enough to think that every real innocent bystander could have left the city already, and that Fallujah is now close of a free fire zone.

No they are making heavy use of snipers PRECISELY to reduce "collateral damage" and the AC 130's were used against truck moving without lights at night. The trucks in question then had massive secondary explosions (they were carrying ammunition).

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
If we wanted to "take the gloves off" we could have level Fallujah already, and Najaf as well.

So rape victims should be thankful they wern't tortured and murdered? Just 'cuz we could do lots worse is no reason to be behaving like Israelis.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Spiff, Frenchmen were killed by American and British bombers in WW2, IIUC. Do you call that "slaughtering civilians"?

I don't, because I haven't lost anybody in it, and I think the Germans have done much worse than the Americans.

However, the inhabitants of the mentioned cities think differently. There are still traces of the grudge toward Americans and English in cities like Le Havre and Caen. Many people hold the death and destruction as useless slaughter. I am personally too uninformed to say how I feel about it.

[lord of the mark]

From Strategy Page:

The marines won’t release any numbers of sniper kills (except that the top scoring sniper in Fallujah has 24 kills so far), but it is known from emails coming back that the marines use snipers, and sniping tactics (for non-snipers), extensively. Part of this is to comply with the Rules of Engagement (ROE) that call for minimizing civilian casualties. Most often, the marines only use a lot of fire power when they are ambushed (there is no better way to deal with an ambush than to blast your way out of it). But most of the Iraqi gunmen are killed by single shots, usually by the trained snipers, after the snipers and their commanders had carefully set up sniper firing positions that covered areas they knew Iraqis liked to travel through. UAVs and lots of scouting, plus questioning of prisoners, reveals the Iraqi routes and makes them deadly to use. This has terrorized the Iraqis, which is exactly what it is intended to do. The army and marine snipers particularly like to work at night, when their night vision and thermal imaging equipment enables them to shoot accurately in the darkness. This further reduces the chance of civilian losses, and increases the terror.

[Az]

Yesterday, I had a meeting with old comrades, and we ended up talking about the Soviet intervention in Afghanistan. The arguments used by the Soviets and by their sycophants (we were their sycophants back in the day), were frighteningly similar with the US and Iraq. A belief to bring progress and justice, which allowed to overlook for any horror (what horrors? How could the Russians / the Americans perpetrate any horror? They're far above that! )

Dude, the soviets WERE right!

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
are you familiar with the propaganda campaign related to Jenin? thousands of civilians, killed. Until it was found that only dozens of civilians were killed.

The Palestinian Authority has a very efficient propaganda machine running on. I apologize for thinking there is a difference between the Palestinian authority and the refugees of a few-weeks-old guerilla.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Spiffor
This is what happens when you attack religious buildings in a religious country - you are bound to destroy all the civilians who looked for a safe haven, and who believed religious buildings are respected.

Interesting. How do you suggest they handle mosques being used as bases for insergents?

Probably the content of this article is not 100% right. But this doesn't mean the info should be utterly dismissed, like you seem to do

I'm not dismissing it out of hand. I'm just taking it with more than a grain of salt than you seem to. The grain just got larger after your description of the paper though.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


So rape victims should be thankful they wern't tortured and murdered? Just 'cuz we could do lots worse is no reason to be behaving like Israelis.

1. No people who are lose someone by accident to the police during a shootout between cops and criminals, who claim the police were negligent, should, on finding that the police went beyond the call of duty to avoid harm to innocents, even at the cost of police lives, have their complaints dismissed.

2. What cities have the Israelis leveled? Perhaps youre thinking of the Russians in Grozny, or the Syrians at Hama.

[Evil Knevil]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
2. What cities have the Israelis leveled? Perhaps youre thinking of the Russians in Grozny, or the Syrians at Hama.

I can think of a certain Lebanese UN compound.

[Az]

I can think of an elephant.
[/Tassadar]

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Spiffor

The Palestinian Authority has a very efficient propaganda machine running on. I apologize for thinking there is a difference between the Palestinian authority and the refugees of a few-weeks-old guerilla.

The PA used Jenin civilians for their propaganda, IIRC. I see no reason that Fedayeen Saddam or Zarqawis Al Tawheed wouldnt have the same capability

[Yef]

Originally posted by Spiffor

Those are refugees answering a French journalist. Propaganda implies an organised and systematised attempt at bringing information, foten orchestrated by an organization (government). I strongly doubt these refugees have been briefed to tell coherent lies to journalists.

Arab propaganda is orchestrated through their mosques. They all know that the more they exagerate and lie about what the US is doing in Irak the more chances they have of:

1- Bringing international preassure to bear on the US, and force them to leave.
2- Enrage the Arabs masses and provoke an general uprising beyond what the US can deal with.
3- Gain sympathy from the Euros, whom will send money to help the "civilians".
4- Get volunteers from Arab countries.

Originally posted by Spiffor
Well, sure, this woman only lost three of her relatives, the refugees only saw corspes piling in their streets, they only saw bombed houses with corpses in the rubble. What's the fuss about?

Hey, and why is this happening ONLY in that town?
Because they have been killing anyone that drives by, because the shoot at any coalition vehicle in the area.
Fallujah is terrorist nest, and it is so because the local population supports them and hide them when coalition forces appear.

That's the Arab way of lies.
They always claim to be the victims of injustices. They forget all that they do, all that they begin but fail to finish, and they forget all the injustice and suffering they have caused to other people.

There are 30 millions Kurds who remain stateless to this day, suffering from Arab persecution. But the only mention of an independent Kurddish State in their corner of Irak brings all the Arabs to the street enraged at how "their land" its being taken by those evil Kurds.

And what about the millions of Berbers in North Africa that resisted the Arab onslaught for centuries? Their language and culture are largely outlawed today. Millions in Black Africa have died resisting this forced Arabization, as well, and the fight continues in Sudan with millions of Blacks having been killed, maimed, enslaved, turned into refugees and the like.

For the Arabs, if you are not Arab, you are a dog, and they will use you, manipulate you, and learn how to speak to you with words of peace to convince you of their "plight", to receive your support, untill you become unnecessary. Then they will cut your throat for being an infidel if you resist, or make you a serf if you submit.

For them, we are only dhimmies. For them, theirs is the only justice.

[GePap]

While Spiff might be too emotionally invested, to think many civilians are not getting killed in Fallujah given the Amount of firepower the US is using is silly.

Also, on Jenin, no one said thousands, they said hundreds at the time (like 500 I believe). The Iraqi ministry of health (you know, our guys) was reporting well over 600 killed in Fallujah after the first week or so. Unless we believe US appointees have a reason to make things up against their overlords (nice word...), then the statements of significant civilian dead in Fallujah is very believeable.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Evil Knevil


I can think of a certain Lebanese UN compound.

If youre thinking of Sabra and Shatilla, they were refuges camps, not compounds. They werent leveled, the inhabitants were massacred by gunfire. Since the folks who did the massacre, the Phalangist militia, werent capable of leveling a town.

But youre right, we shouldnt act like the Russians in Grozny, the Syrians at Hama, or the Lebanese Phalangist militia at Sabra and Shatilla. And we wont.