Hypothetical: would the USSR have done better against Germany without Stalin?

[Serb]

Originally posted by Hurricane
Without somebody as ruthless and crazy as Stalin,

Stalin wasn't crazy.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Giancarlo
Stalin virtually decimated much of the high military campaign taking out many experienced officers. He was left with bozos (Zhukov) who didn't know how to operate a military campaign effectively. Running groups of men against MG-42 fire isn't effective. You get morons like Zhukov running campaigns...

"For Zhukov, it won him accalades from Stalin who had so badly purged his military that their morale was so low and leadership so bad that they couldn’t even defeat the tiny population of Finland prior to the German invasion of Russia. In January 1941, Stalin appointed Zhukov to be chief of the general staff. Zhukov was neither qualified nor interested in the work. In fact, Stalin considered him too out-spoken and dismissed him down to the Stavka on a committee in charge of strategic planning."

"Throughout the winter, Zhukov’s true military prowess was revealed. Zhukov was a man who cared little to nothing for his men nor casualty counts. Like the Japanese, he ordered massed front-wide attacks dis-interested in losses. Unlike the Japanese though, his men did not have the culture nor morale for it. It was a meat-grinder, what Soviet soldiers and even tanks weren’t killed by the Germans, were killed upon returning by their own country-men. Too impatient to deal with mine-fields by mine-detectors or even bayonets, when he ran out of cows to herd across them, he used civilians, pows and even his own soldiers. German commanders couldn’t believe it. Historically even the Japanese weren’t so wreckless. There was a huge difference between the Japanese Banzai attacks and this."

http://www.monarch.net/users/miller/...oes_Zhukov.htm

Oh my, what a load of ****ing bullsh!t.
Only such nazi boys with SS posters avatars as you are, can claim that Zhukov was an incompetent commander and that all those old farts as Tukhachevsky were much better.
Who the f*ck are you to call Zhukov a moron?
To your knowledge Mr. "I love SS posters", military casualties of Germany and SU at Russian front in WW2 were 1:1,3 in favor of Germany, mostly because Soviets treated their prisoners far better, than nazi did (2/3 of Soviet POWs died in nazi camps; 1/7 of German POW's died in Soviet camps).

[Alexander's Horse]

He was a clinical psychopath, a classic case.

Impossible to say if Russia would have been better off without him during the war. They would have had generals like Tukhachevsky and probably would have handled the attack better.

But who would have provided the extreme ruthlessness and discipline that was given by Stalin?

[monolith94]

Neither peace nor war!

great quote!

[Serb]

Originally posted by Saras
Serb will tell you about the best and brightest. Some were, some were not, a LOT were brought back from Gulags to become the most successful operational generals.

That aside, if Stalin had ordered a coordinated retreat in 1941 and not a "stand fast till death" orders, the red army might have, and I say might have, managed some serious counterattacks earlier on. I'm about through "Red Army Tank Commanders: the Armored Guards" and they were desperately scrapping units together from 90% depleted units in october-november. Imagine if they had a powerful retreated, equipped and rested STAVKA reserve and :gasp: cut off Panzergroup Guderian at the base in a massive encirclement?

Saras, he gave this order "not a single step back" much later, already after Soviet counter-offensive at Moscow. As for coordinated retreat, the problem in 1941 was that no one, even Germans themselves had experience and knowledge how to efficiently resist blitzkreig type attack.
Red army slowly retreated in 1941 (the time was needed to evaquate industry). Also I see other two big problems with coordinated retreat- lack of modern radio communication (thanks to bright mind- Tukhachevsky ) and lack of means of transportation (Red Army was poorly motorized, thanks again comrade Tuhlyi , and Germans didn't give much time for Soviets to mobilize trucks from industry).

[Saras]

--"This meant, among other things, betraying the comrades in the Baltics and the Ukraine"

Che Che Che... Comrades in the Baltics... Just say no, man.

[Saras]

Serb, I have this great book, written by Armstrong, based on corroboration of both German and Soviet sources (although he relies more on Soviet). It is about six less known (well, less known than the "household names" of Konev and Zhukov) Red Army Generals, who commanded 1-6 Guards tank armies - Katukov, Bogdanov, Lelyushenko, Kravchenko, Rotmistrov and Rybalko.

Although they do not state it explicitly, IMHO they could have retreated. These guys just kept running a few km and the counterattacked, with dreadful losses, and thus depleted themselves very fast to skeleton divisions with staffs only. Rearguard action, anyone? Ambushes? Napoleon did these things, had them done to him by the Spanish and the Russians, come on.

And iirc bogdanov and rotmistrov were brought back from siberian exile (after purges) to become what they became. So don't masturbate this tukhachevsky theme, he's not the only one purged.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Saras
Serb, I have this great book, written by Armstrong, based on corroboration of both German and Soviet sources (although he relies more on Soviet). It is about six less known (well, less known than the "household names" of Konev and Zhukov) Red Army Generals, who commanded 1-6 Guards tank armies - Katukov, Bogdanov, Lelyushenko, Kravchenko, Rotmistrov and Rybalko.

Although they do not state it explicitly, IMHO they could have retreated. These guys just kept running a few km and the counterattacked, with dreadful losses, and thus depleted themselves very fast to skeleton divisions with staffs only. Rearguard action, anyone? Ambushes? Napoleon did these things, had them done to him by the Spanish and the Russians, come on.

Like Russians didn't do this in 1941.
The problem was that German army had much greater mobility, used strategy no one knew how to resist at this time and major part of this strategy was to disorganize the enemy, to destroy his command structure, to bring chaos.
Having their advantage in mobility Germans could/and did outmaneuver retreating Soviets, that lead to pockets and in most of the cases to surrender (many Soviet troops actually broke out throught pockets, sometimes units as big as divisions left pockets through forests at nights).
So, when their (I mean the generals you mentioned) units counter-attacked, I guess, they fulfilled their objectives. I think those counter-attacks were launched to let other forces re-group, to win some time.

And iirc bogdanov and rotmistrov were brought back from siberian exile (after purges) to become what they became.

Bogdanov- yes, he was arrested in 1940. Rotmistrov- no, he was never arrested and never was in exile. After he finished military academy of Frunze, he was appointed to staff of "Zabaikalskaya" infantry division, located in Chita. After two years he was appointed to assistant of cheif of operative unit of staff of Far East army. I can't see how this could be an exile. Or perhaps you consider any time spent in Siberia as an exile? In this case, I'm myself spent most of my lifetime in exile.

So don't masturbate this tukhachevsky theme, he's not the only one purged.

Me? The guys who call him the brightest mind in Red Army, are masturbating on his picture, not me.

[Saras]

--"Me? The guys who call him the brightest mind in Red Army, are masturbating on his picture, not me."

Ja ne pro eto - ty perestan "drochit" etu temu, skolko mozhno, tebe "Red army Purges", a ty - Tuchachevsky da Tuchachevsky.

[Serb]

Please re-read this thread. I didn't notice ANY OTHER names here. All I noticed is abstract "Red army purges" and Tukhachevsky as brightest mind and the greatest loss of Red Army. Brightest mind, my ass. The guys who shout about purges and dare to make conclusions about their impact on Red Army, simply don't know any other names. (You are the only exception who gave other two names, one of them inccorectly of course).


p.s. a vzdrachivat' ya eshe ne nachinal, seychas podnimu koe-kakuyu literaturku s real'nymi ziframi po chistkam 37-38, vot togda poidet pizda po zakoulochkam. Hotya etim olen'yam odin her nichego ne dokazhesh, odin fez chego stoit.

[Saras]

fez roolz

[Serb]

Originally posted by TheStinger
If the Germans thought the SU was well led and organised they would not have invaded. They thought they could win because Stalin had purged the army. and that their armed forces were rubbish.
of course some of this perception was due to Nazi superiority theories but this was at the margins.

The Germans wouldn't have invaded USSR regardless what they thought, but nazis would invaded USSR, no matter what. It was their, nazis, major goals from the beggining (Hitler's, Main Kampf) - to capture eastern territories and cleanese this new space from "inferior humans" (Slavs) and settle them with German colonists and to destroy communism.

As for what nazi thought, when they planned their attack, do you ever thought that they didn't have much choice? Had they give another 1-1.5 years to Stalin, to complete his programm of modernization of red Army, in 1942 they would faced an unbeatable force armed with tens of thousands of T-34, KV, IL, Yak, LaGG, rocket artillery, etc, instead of armada of rusty crap of T-26, BT-5, T-35, T-28, I-15, I-16, TB-3, etc. created by "brightest mind" Tukhachevsky.

[Saras]

Opyat drochish

[Serb]

Originally posted by Saras
fez roolz

Not roolz, but rolls. He will be rolling on floor with his head put in his ass, if he ever be in Russia while waving his SS posters above his head or saying some of his ordinary BS. But, perhaps in Lithuania or in other Baltic states he and his nazi pictures will be welcomed. I heard you guys have parades of former SS veterans. I bet Fez would cream his pants if he will ever see that kind of show (WOW!!! It's a whole bunch of old motherf*ckers wearing SS uniforms and waving flags with swastickas over their heads, right Fezzy? )

Btw, how is your trip to Ryazan? Devok tamoshnih mnogo poportili?

[Serb]

Originally posted by Saras
Opyat drochish

I'm married, God dammit.
: )