Hypothetical: would the USSR have done better against Germany without Stalin?

[Urban Ranger]

Some blamed the staggering early losses of the USSR in WWII on Stalin, particularly on his purges. Others attributed eventual victory on Stalin's superhuman will, arguing that the USSR would have lost without the man.

What do you think?

[Kropotkin]

Well, the Soviet union could surely have done without many of his bozo-misstakes. But on the other hand it's hard to see that the soviet union (considering it's early history) would have a leader without a simular ruthlessness.

[Gangerolf]

What would have happened if Trotsky had taken power instead of Stalin?
Maybe he would be more prone to make a deal with or surrender to the Germans.

[Barinthus]

I'm sure that USSR would have fared better since Stalin purged the military of its brightest and best officers. Russians, based on my observations throughout their history, have been a very resilent country and they seems to be willing to do whatever it takes to ensure their Motherland's survival. Human waves, sorched-earth tactics, and so on.

[Gangerolf]

On the other hand, with Trotsky in power the Communist revolution in Germany would be more likely to succeed, and there wouldn't be a second world war. (At least not one where Germany attacked the USSR.)

[Hurricane]

Without somebody as ruthless and crazy as Stalin, it is possible that the whole state of Soviet wouldn't have existed anymore by WW2. But with the communist system having failed already in the 30's, would Hitler ever have been able to get to power in Germany? Would there even have been any WW2 in this case?

[Gangerolf]

I'm sure that USSR would have fared better since Stalin purged the military of its brightest and best officers.

That's true. But don't you think the German campaign would be successful in the opening stages anyway? I'm just speculating here, but Trotsky was Lenin's boy and Lenin did "surrender" to the Germans in 1918. If Lenin could do it then Trotsky could too.

[Giancarlo]

Stalin virtually decimated much of the high military campaign taking out many experienced officers. He was left with bozos (Zhukov) who didn't know how to operate a military campaign effectively. Running groups of men against MG-42 fire isn't effective. You get morons like Zhukov running campaigns...

"For Zhukov, it won him accalades from Stalin who had so badly purged his military that their morale was so low and leadership so bad that they couldn’t even defeat the tiny population of Finland prior to the German invasion of Russia. In January 1941, Stalin appointed Zhukov to be chief of the general staff. Zhukov was neither qualified nor interested in the work. In fact, Stalin considered him too out-spoken and dismissed him down to the Stavka on a committee in charge of strategic planning."

"Throughout the winter, Zhukov’s true military prowess was revealed. Zhukov was a man who cared little to nothing for his men nor casualty counts. Like the Japanese, he ordered massed front-wide attacks dis-interested in losses. Unlike the Japanese though, his men did not have the culture nor morale for it. It was a meat-grinder, what Soviet soldiers and even tanks weren’t killed by the Germans, were killed upon returning by their own country-men. Too impatient to deal with mine-fields by mine-detectors or even bayonets, when he ran out of cows to herd across them, he used civilians, pows and even his own soldiers. German commanders couldn’t believe it. Historically even the Japanese weren’t so wreckless. There was a huge difference between the Japanese Banzai attacks and this."

http://www.monarch.net/users/miller/ww2/history/Heroes_Zhukov.htm

[Saras]

Serb will tell you about the best and brightest. Some were, some were not, a LOT were brought back from Gulags to become the most successful operational generals.

That aside, if Stalin had ordered a coordinated retreat in 1941 and not a "stand fast till death" orders, the red army might have, and I say might have, managed some serious counterattacks earlier on. I'm about through "Red Army Tank Commanders: the Armored Guards" and they were desperately scrapping units together from 90% depleted units in october-november. Imagine if they had a powerful retreated, equipped and rested STAVKA reserve and :gasp: cut off Panzergroup Guderian at the base in a massive encirclement?

[TheStinger]

If the Germans thought the SU was well led and organised they would not have invaded. They thought they could win because Stalin had purged the army. and that their armed forces were rubbish.
of course some of this perception was due to Nazi superiority theories but this was at the margins.

[General Ludd]

If stalin wasn't there to make mistakes and do stupid things, someone else would be there to make mistakes and do stupid thing.

[Saras]

Originally posted by TheStinger
They thought they could win because Stalin had purged the army. and that their armed forces were rubbish.
of course some of this perception was due to Nazi superiority theories but this was at the margins.

Most of it was due to abysmal performance in Finland and :gasp: eastern poland, where the only enemy resisting was mud and logistics.

[Sandman]

A co-ordinated retreat in 1941 would have saved the Red Army a lot of blood, and would have played on Russia's big advantage; distance.

Not gumming up the rail network with deportees would have helped as well.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Also remember that Stalin brutally industrialized the country. Without him, would the USSR been at the same level of industrialization? It's hard to tell, but it usually is easier to progress if the crack of the whip makes you.

[loinburger]

The Red Army would have probably fared better had they not been forced to deal with Ukrainian partisans, had the effected a coordinated retreat in '41 rather than being annihilated, and had Tukhachevsky et al not been executed. Perhaps Trotsky and Bukharin would have starved the Ukrainians, hobbled the tank corps, and executed the staff officers, but somehow I doubt it. It is also unlikely that Trotsky or Bukharin would have signed the non-aggression pact with Hitler, so there would not even have been a need for a coordinated retreat in '41.

Whether the world as a whole would have fared better is another question -- perhaps without Stalin's idiocy leading to Hitler's overconfidence, Germany may have never attacked the Soviets at all, and Germany would have been left fighting a war on only one front.