ANALYSIS: An Even-Handed Look at American, European Relations

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Arrian
Pekka, Spiff,

You guys aren't actually trying to have a serious discussion with Ned are you?

Ned is definitely less stupid than he seems. He has a very strange perception of reality, but his cognitive abilities are normal. It is possible to have a rational argument with him, if he's in the mood of not trolling, and if he accepts to consider others' facts as true.

[Fake Boris]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Ned is definitely less stupid than he seems. He has a very strange perception of reality, but his cognitive abilities are normal.

Not that I disagree... but your way of putting it is just insanely funny.

[Fake Boris]

Oh, I forgot to mention that it was time to change my sig about Tripledoc. Good job Spiffor.

[Fake Boris]

Originally posted by Kucinich
How is it imperialism?

Basically, the economic interests of Britain got intertwined with those of America. Between 1900 and 1939, America increasingly became an important investing force in British colonies, surpassing Britain itself in some.

When Britain (and France, Netherlands) could not hold their colonies anymore, somehow America had to protect their economic interests (and those of its allies, if Marshall was to work), out of fear that nationalist movements would install communism. This is what I define as neo-imperialism, the large scale trade of weapons and funding of affiliated right-wing military guerillas.

[Pekka]

Gatekeeper, thank you. Like I've said, I don't feel European before. I just can't identify with it. Not because of what is now happening. But in general. I don't know what European is. I don't think there is a thing that is European. There are just bunch of countries, variety, melt pot of cultures, but within own borders. I'm from north, we're not physically connected to the rest of the Europe and I've never felt that way either.

But that doesn't mean I would hate Europe. I just can't identify it, however I do recognize it as the place I was brought up in, and I do feel close to Europe and it's people for example comparing to the East.

But I like the US too. In fact I feel American, even though I'm not. It makes me sounds like a stupid teenage wannabe, but hey, that's the way it goes. So seeing two of the things I feel are me and part of me against each other is like seeing myself being cut in the middle and arguing with each other, like the worst schitzofrenia I could imagine. I'd fight for Europe. I'd fight for the US. I wouldn't fight for no one else. I wouldn't even show up to the rest of them. To see it happening would be seeing myself splitting and I can't choose. And just like in that scenario where US and Europe would rumble, there's no referee who calls it to stop, because the refs are in the ring. And I couldn't find a referee for myself either, I couldn't make a logical decision which way to go.

So it's not only what I think with my common sense, it's what I feel I'm about, so hell yeah it's personal. And I think everyone else should feel the friendship too, because there is one if you just open your eyes and see it.

The closest thing for me would be to say that I'm a Westerner. I'm proud to be one and I'd defend it against aggressors. I like the West, and it can't fall apart. It just can't, not by us. Let it be someone bigger power then, outside force, but not us. I feel the West is the best thing happening in this world, it's the hope of many things and shows the way. West can not split, it must be like it was, is and hopefully will be.

[Ned]

Thanks Spiffor.

And, you can take it to the bank, what I am saying is what many Americans are saying and feeling. There is a huge anti-French and anti-European opinion here mainly because of the fallout from Iraq.

It is one thing to disagree with a course of action. It is another to openly oppose American policy under circumstances where we have declared our vital national interests to be at stake -- even if Europe disagrees that they are.

It is one thing to disagree with policies of an American president. It is another to ridicule him.

We assume that Europe and France are on the side of peace, stability and democracy. We should be working together to make the world a better place for every inhabitant on this planet. But frankly, the European attitude about Saddam Hussein is hardly comprehensible. There is little doubt that had France gotten its way from 1990 on, that Saddam Hussein would have been in power today, not only in Iraq, but also in Kuwait and probably in Saudi Arabia and the entire Persian Gulf. Tell me I'm wrong about this. Tell me how this dictatorial madman was a benefit to mankind. Explain to me why eliminating his regime was not good for the world.

[Duvan]

I can´t see anyone disagree about removing Saddam was a bad thing, but what everyone was talking about before the war was if he was a big threat to the rest of the world. Wasen´t that that what US and larger part of EU disagreed on?

[GhengisFarb™]

Re: ANALYSIS: An Even-Handed Look at American, European Relations

Originally posted by Gatekeeper
1. I was most touched by the part where the Italian waiter, Dario Di Tiello, says:

"If you go to the American cemetery in Cassino or the cemetery in nearby Anzio, you can see how many Americans are buried there, how many came to save us from hell. We always forget these things. For me, the American people were a great people, they still are a great people."

That is so weird. I don't think I've ever heard a European state they appreciated the US being involved in WW2. Most of the Europeans on Apolyton always state the the US was just a tag along country in WW2 and didn't really have any affect on the war's outcome.

Its kinda nice to think there's at least one European that doesn't hate the US.

[Fake Boris]

This whole thing about WW2 is silly. When facing an enemy like the Nazis, you would be hard-pressed to be on the side of the bad guys.

I don't see why America's involvement 60 years ago should dictate how we view post-WW2 foreign policy.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Oncle Boris
This whole thing about WW2 is silly. When facing an enemy like the Nazis, you would be hard-pressed to be on the side of the bad guys.

I don't see why America's involvement 60 years ago should dictate how we view post-WW2 foreign policy.

Believe me, OB, if Nazi Germany today invaded France, there would be no way in hell that Congress would declare war on Germany.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Duvan
I can´t see anyone disagree about removing Saddam was a bad thing, but what everyone was talking about before the war was if he was a big threat to the rest of the world. Wasen´t that that what US and larger part of EU disagreed on?

If Oil means anything to Europe, then Saddam was a threat.

[GhengisFarb™]

Originally posted by Oncle Boris
This whole thing about WW2 is silly. When facing an enemy like the Nazis, you would be hard-pressed to be on the side of the bad guys.

The same can be said of the Baath Party and Saddam.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Duvan
I can´t see anyone disagree about removing Saddam was a bad thing, but what everyone was talking about before the war was if he was a big threat to the rest of the world. Wasen´t that that what US and larger part of EU disagreed on?

Well, Duvan, you haven't heard the other shoe drop yet. Dean, the candidate who dropped out and has now endorsed Kerry, has again begin emphasizing that in his opinion neither the world nor the United States is in any way safer without Saddam.

This is just a prelude to a call for unilateral withdrawal by Kerry who had said that if he were president, we never would have removed Saddam. The logical conclusion to all this is that it makes no difference whether the Iraqi's have a democracy or if Saddam's Ba'athist party shoots its way back into power. Since it makes no difference, why spend lives and dollars on a policy that has no consequence to the security of America.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Thanks Spiffor.

You just thanked someone who said you had a 'strange perception of reality'

Believe me, OB, if Nazi Germany today invaded France, there would be no way in hell that Congress would declare war on Germany.

Bull****!

[ErikM]

Re: Re: ANALYSIS: An Even-Handed Look at American, European Relations

Originally posted by GhengisFarb
Its kinda nice to think there's at least one European that doesn't hate the US.

He's an exception, don't worry