ANALYSIS: An Even-Handed Look at American, European Relations

[Paul Hanson]

Ooh, zing.

No, seriously Ned, what have French people ever done to you to make you hate them with such vitriol? Have you ever met more than a handful of French people, or is your opinion of them based entirely off the actions of French politicians?

And I'm willing to bet that when you ***** about Europe, there's a little disclaimer in your head that goes "But the British are alright", isn't there? If you're going to *****, at least be consistent.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Paul Hanson
Ooh, zing.

No, seriously Ned, what have French people ever done to you to make you hate them with such vitriol? Have you ever met more than a handful of French people, or is your opinion of them based entirely off the actions of French politicians?

And I'm willing to bet that when you ***** about Europe, there's a little disclaimer in your head that goes "But the British are alright", isn't there? If you're going to *****, at least be consistent.

The Brits are more than alright. They are great. Ditto Poland and all the former East Block countries that apparently still value freedom. It is the Old Europe, particularly the French, that are the problem. They elevate corruption to virtue, unfaithfulness (to their wifes for example) to the norm, and hypocrisy to the language of culture.

[Ned]

Good night folks. Resume your Bush bashing. It substitutes for thought.

[DRoseDARs]

This from a guy that parrots the Neocon Talking Points?

[Kropotkin]

Haha. No, it's not like words as 'old europe' and 'appeasement' are subtitutes for thought in your mind neddie.

[notyoueither]

"What really is going on now between Europe and America is a working out of a relationship for the post-Cold War era. We should have had this discussion back in the 1990s, but we didn’t. The fundamental question is, what kind of world order do we want?"

That about sums it up, I think, except...

"Some of it’s jealousy, the frustration that after (Bill) Clinton we thought we’d have our own guy in the White House and then it didn’t turn out that way," said George Osborne, a Tory member of Parliament who supports Bush. "But the Bush frontier-style talk just doesn’t go down well among Tories."

The President of the United States is not acceptable to Europe if he is from Texas and is not a Democrat, I guess...

Do these morons think they are lobbying for a vote within the greater empire? I swear sometimes I can truely feel the frustration some Yanks feel with furriners. WTF? Who ever got so fussed over the politicians and politcs of Britain, France and Germany other than Britons, French, and Germans. There is something rotten in all of this, I'm just not entirely sure what is is yet.

But the United States is the new hyper-power, and Europeans concede that the harsh rhetoric against Bush’s military policies should not jeopardize the transatlantic alliance.

That's quite a prized quote. I like that one. Too bad nobody seems to pay much attention to it. Who wrote this?

It may never be a love fest. Europe and America have had more than 200 years of skirmishes and spats. America has been cast as the ambitious upstart less concerned with high culture than with making a buck, Europe as a bit of a relic that speaks eloquently but is skittish when it comes to action. The Cold War put a veneer over the rifts as Europe and the United States faced a common enemy.

That bit is very true, I think.

Moisi said Europe and the United States might grow closer in coming years through an ironic twist. Under Russian President Vladimir V. Putin, Moscow is growing autocratic and restive as Europe integrates and becomes more of an economic power. This trend concerns European officials, some of whom believe Cold War ghosts are stirring.

"You suddenly start to be worried," Moisi said, "and you start to want a blend of U.S. and European cooperation."

Whoo ****! Maybe we should have cooperated when the Yanks last, and only time, needed us, says the last Euro to turn the lights out.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! is all I can imagine Yanks saying back, except maybe to the Brits.

[Paul Hanson]

Originally posted by Ned


The Brits are more than alright. They are great. Ditto Poland and all the former East Block countries that apparently still value freedom. It is the Old Europe, particularly the French, that are the problem. They elevate corruption to virtue, unfaithfulness (to their wifes for example) to the norm, and hypocrisy to the language of culture.

I'm British, Neddy-poos. Am I alright? More to the point, why am I alright?

And could you produce some hard evidence to support all that **** about the entire French nation? Come on, you must have go it from somewhere - I mean, it's not like you'd just pull something that dumb out of your arse, right?

So, are you actually going to bed, or are you logging off Poly to avoid having to justify all of this? Do tell us, we're all curious.

[DRoseDARs]

*SQUAWK* Old Europe, Axis of Weasel! *SQUAWK*

Aw, did someone ruffle your feathers Ned?

[DAVOUT]

Originally posted by Ned
They really need to get their act together before they get my respect.

I cant see any reason why they could give any value to your respect.

[notyoueither]

Actually... if Ivan and Mr. Wong are willing to buy into capitalism and to trade, WTH use does North America have for supporting Continental Europe?

WTH should the US risk it's servicemen in operations in the Balkans when Europe replies with derision to quid pro quo?

What most Euros don't know is just how close the isolated Yank is in all of this. Somehow I suspect the Euros would not be very happy to be left alone with Ivan and Mr. Wong after the Yanks say 'fvck this, we're going home'.

It would be interesting to see if Europe could figure it's own way out without the Yanks to prop them up in the face of powers that could strip them bare in a few short days.

[Paul Hanson]

Depends what you're implying. If you're saying that China and Russia (I assume that's who Ivan and Mr. Wong are) could lay the smack down on Europe militarily without US help, then I'd agree with you, provided either of them could really get within striking distance of Europe.

Economically, Europe can stand on it's own two feet.

[notyoueither]

Russia is not within striking distance of Europe? Did you inform Napoleon of this?

[Paul Hanson]

OK, poor choice of words on my part. My bad.

Let's put it another way: do you forsee Russia being hostile to Europe at any point in the near future?

[Harovan]

Originally posted by notyoueither
What most Euros don't know is just how close the isolated Yank is in all of this. Somehow I suspect the Euros would not be very happy to be left alone with Ivan and Mr. Wong after the Yanks say 'fvck this, we're going home'.

I think most people would shrug, just like they did when the bulk left in the 90's. I would add a "good riddance". A few innkeepers and whores would be unhappy, but that's about it. The impact these troops have on our economy is greatly exaggerated. We're talking about some 70 thousands in a country of 80 millions. Their impact on our economy is about as big as a fart in the Royal Albert Hall.

As for your constructed threats... cracked me up! Are you talking about that Russia, which has trouble to contain tiny Chechnya? In this case, I have bad news for you. Russia is seen as an important partner for trading and stability hereabouts. The old bug-a-boo image as excuse to maintain the American forepost here doesn't work anymore.

And China... come on NYE. That's about the same as saying, that India could be a major threat for Brazil, or something like this. Or Iraq threatening the United States, for that matter.

[Sandman]

This is nothing like an even-handed look at America-European relations.

Europe can’t shake the bowlegged cowboy peeking out from a too-big Stetson, arms bent and ready to draw. This political caricature of President Bush endures, even as trans-Atlantic relations have improved from the derision and backbiting that one year ago marked the beginning of the Iraq war.

This is how America thinks the world sees it. Not how the world actually sees it. The writer continues to peddle the idea that Americans are seen as cowboys throughout the article.

The spate of across-the-pond name-calling — Euroweenies vs. cultural bimbos — has largely subsided. But Europeans have been reminded that they are more different from Americans than they once thought. Attitudes toward gay marriage, capital punishment and other social issues reveal the chasm between a liberal-leaning Europe and a conservative-tilting America.

I think that the name calling has been one-sided. Europeans have never come close to the hateful, hurtful exaggerations of anti-semitism and the suggestion that Europe is 'up to it's old tricks'. When was the last time anyone used the phrase 'cultural bimbos' on this forum, or anywhere? It's been made up for the article. And let's not forget the racism displayed towards the French.

The death penalty is not a divisive issue, despite what some Americans claim. A good portion of Europeans support it, and quite a few American states don't use it. And a there are a lot of other countries that use it/don't use it.

To claim that 'Euros are always whining about the death penalty' is pure fantasy.

Gay marriage is an internal American thing. No-one else cares.

It's also suggests that American liberals are somehow less American than their conservative counterparts.

Europeans have tried to move beyond rancor when discussing Washington. Conversation is as dignified and proper as a tea party on the Thames. There are the occasional snide asides about Europe’s moral authority and the fact that no weapons of mass destruction have been unearthed in Iraq. But when the brandy is poured in the anterooms, or pints are hoisted in pubs, Europeans swoon and giggle over John Kerry, the continent’s new poster boy.

Christ. This is even-handed, is it? A timely reminder of the 'European = effeminate' line. And a nice dig at Kerry as a bonus.

I reckon that these fables are being created to justify American malevolence towards Europe. Rest assured that the dislike is not mutual.

I don't think Russia can be considered a threat to Europe. The enlarged EU's population will outnumber them 3 to 1, and their demographics make the EU look positively youthful.