"If this does not qualify for the death sentence, then there is no case that would''

[Ramo]

As to unlocking the doors for half a million people behind bars, something very similar to that was tried with our nation's mental institutions in the 70's....didn't work so well then, but if you're up for a replay of that song and dance....

I smoke weed. Do you honestly think that I'm going to hurt anyone?

Forgive me for not feeling floods and hordes of compassion for a guy who comes out of his house with the blood of NINE FAMILY MEMBERS all over his clothes, including two of the kids he fathered with...his kids.

Sorry, I'll spend my compassion elsewhere, thankyouverymuch.

You don't have to like him. Only treat him like a human being. There's no point in the state going down to his level.

[Velociryx]

Hey, I smoked a little too in my college days. Didn't get caught, either. If I had, I'd be one of those half a mil you mentioned in your other post.

Right or wrong, it's the current law of the land. If it's something that needs changing, there's a system in place to do that, and at that time, we'll see a drop in prison population. The solution, however, is not to just chuck the law out the window and fling wide the prison doors.

And I'm sorry to say that the kinder, gentler approach doesn't work.

At all.

It doesn't work when dealing with middle east terrorists, and it doesn't work when dealing with god-complex murderers of their family.

It's the world we live in, bro. Love it, hate it....doesn't matter. The world's not gonna shift gears just cos you don't like the way things are, and sometimes you gotta get nasty right back at the bad guys, cos it's the language they understand, and if you speak some other language to them, you get exactly nowhere.

The days of "an eye for an eye" aren't gone, but they are slowly fading.

Until they ARE gone, it would be unwise in the extreme to pretend otherwise, and right now, that's exactly what it'd be....pretend.

We ain't there yet, and wishing won't make it so.

-=Vel=-

[Ramo]

Hey, I smoked a little too in my college days. Didn't get caught, either. If I had, I'd be one of those half a mil you mentioned in your other post.

Right or wrong, it's the current law of the land. If it's something that needs changing, there's a system in place to do that, and at that time, we'll see a drop in prison population. The solution, however, is not to just chuck the law out the window and fling wide the prison doors.

I'm not sure what you're saying. The law shouldn't be changed because it's the law?

And I'm sorry to say that the kinder, gentler approach doesn't work.

At all.

Why do you say that it doesn't work? The places with the highest rates of incarceration like the US and Russia also happen to have the highest crime rates. Western and Northern Europe are dealing with crime much better than we are.

It doesn't work when dealing with middle east terrorists, and it doesn't work when dealing with god-complex murderers of their family.

It's the world we live in, bro. Love it, hate it....doesn't matter. The world's not gonna shift gears just cos you don't like the way things are, and sometimes you gotta get nasty right back at the bad guys, cos it's the language they understand, and if you speak some other language to them, you get exactly nowhere.

If the situation warrants it, there's life in prison. Which has just as much of a deterrent effect as the death penalty.

There is absolutely no pragmatic point in killing this person. And I'm talking about the real world, not an idealized version of it.

[Velociryx]

Nope, I'm saying that because it's the law, if you want to fling wide the prison gates, then change the law! (as opposed to just deciding "hey....let's make some room in the jails!")

As to our European counterparts, the difference you're seeing is that things that are classified as jailable offenses here are not classed that way in Europe (and most of the difference in our crime rate can be chalked up to your own aforementioned drug users). That doesn't mean they're "dealing with it" any better, only that some stuff that's illegal here isn't illegal there.

Turkey is an example at the other end of the spectrum. Not much trouble with theft, murder, or adultry there cos ahem....the penalties are...shall we say....harsh?

We could argue between life in prison or the death penalty till we're both blue in the face, and I suspect that neither of us will change the other's mind. You wanna pay to lock up this year's nutcases, great! Pay for next year's crop too. And the year after that....and the year after that....

Me? I'll vote for cookin' 'em up every time. Not only will they not do it again, but we'll also not have an ever-growing population of these sunshiny personalities comparing notes and working out escape plans together.

-=Vel=-

EDIT: And pay my share too, for the ones that get life!

[Aeson]

Killing the horrific means we never have to admit that this "creature" is actually a human being, and that in different circumstances, we could be that "creature".

[Velociryx]

I disagree, Aeson. We can fully acknowlege that he is a human being.

A very DANGEROUS human being to the rest of society.

Yes, we can put rabid dogs in cages and lock them away for the rest of our lives, and we can do that each and every time a new rabid dog comes down the pike until they're piled on top of each other in one of our maximum security institutions, but to what end, precisely? Psychologists don't need hundreds of these guys as experimental fodder, especially given the imprecise nature of their science. It could take a whole lifetime just to study ONE of their number, and we simply don't have throngs of people graduating with psych degrees who are itching to delve into the mind of folks at THAT level of disturbedness. Most psychologists would rather sit in a comfy room talking to yuppies about their various harmless neurosis and call it a day, you know?

Even if we say that your run of the mill serial killer who's incarcerated has a 1 in 1000 chance of somehow escaping, or even NOT escaping but getting the drop on one or more of his guards or fellow inmates and killing him off, as we gather together an increasing number of these folks under our kinder, gentler wing, the odds increase steadily that it'll happen, and the society that thought they were safe from these....creatures will have been proved wrong in a most sorrowful way. I just can't find it within myself to dredge up enough compassion for them to make that possibility justifiable, which is why I haven't budged from my "fry 'em" mentality.

-=Vel=-

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Spiffor

It is useless as in it doesn't help prevent crime, nor does it help establishing a rule of law, where the Law is applied, instead of emotional bloodlust.

And what is wrong with that? I am sorry but if somebody murders a person they get executed. That's not useless, that's justice. I see they don't do that in the communist areas of Europe, like France.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Spiffor

It is useless as in it doesn't help prevent crime, nor does it help establishing a rule of law, where the Law is applied, instead of emotional bloodlust.

I'm completely disagree with your first premise. Vengeance evolved, like any other emotion, because it served a purpose. It turned out (on an evolutionary timescale) that vengeful individuals were more successful, because the others were afraid of the repercussions. Thus vengeance obviously has a deterring effect.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Ramo


Killing the insane turns the claim that the execution deters other crime from absurd to completely ludicrous.

No, because it keeps people from claiming they're insane in order to get off.

[Ramo]

Nope, I'm saying that because it's the law, if you want to fling wide the prison gates, then change the law! (as opposed to just deciding "hey....let's make some room in the jails!")

I certainly don't object to having the law changed. I'm merely pointing out that there's far more than enough money to pay for the upkeep of people who would otherwise be executed.

As to our European counterparts, the difference you're seeing is that things that are classified as jailable offenses here are not classed that way in Europe (and most of the difference in our crime rate can be chalked up to your own aforementioned drug users). That doesn't mean they're "dealing with it" any better, only that some stuff that's illegal here isn't illegal there.

I'd meant excluding drug arrests. For example, take the violent crime rate which is far higher here than in Europe.

Turkey is an example at the other end of the spectrum. Not much trouble with theft, murder, or adultry there cos ahem....the penalties are...shall we say....harsh?

Adultery? Turkey's completely secular. Adultery isn't a crime. BTW, Turkey has abolished its death penalty a few years back. I wouldn't say that its criminal justice system is extreme given that it's milder than ours.

We could argue between life in prison or the death penalty till we're both blue in the face, and I suspect that neither of us will change the other's mind. You wanna pay to lock up this year's nutcases, great! Pay for next year's crop too. And the year after that....and the year after that....

Me? I'll vote for cookin' 'em up every time. Not only will they not do it again, but we'll also not have an ever-growing population of these sunshiny personalities comparing notes and working out escape plans together.

Honestly, how often do mass-murderers escape from prison?

And pay my share too, for the ones that get life!

Sure. And you can pay my share for victims of 3 strikes and the other "tough on crime" laws. Guess who comes out ahead?

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Aeson
Killing the horrific means we never have to admit that this "creature" is actually a human being, and that in different circumstances, we could be that "creature".

In different circumstances, I could be Hitler - I mean hey, if I had his genes, and his upbringing, I would be just like him!

I feel so much sympathy now.

[Velociryx]

Here's an example close to home...my home anyways...our very own Pee Wee Gaskins, of South Carolina.

Killed 13 (that he admitted to....but he also gleefully said that they'd never FIND all the bodies) and they locked him up for life in a maximum security prison.

Of course, that didn't stop him from killing four more and seriously injuring another before they finally had enough and put him to death.

What does the kinder, gentler approach do about (very real) cases like Mr. Gaskins? Slap his wrists?

-=Vel=-

[Ramo]

No, because it keeps people from claiming they're insane in order to get off.

That's nonsense. People committ murders thinking that they won't get caught - or, more likely, they're not thinking about their future at all. They don't think that life in prison is acceptable or that that can somehow fake an insanity defense.

Killing the horrific means we never have to admit that this "creature" is actually a human being, and that in different circumstances, we could be that "creature".

Self-delusion is hardly a healthy attitude to have towards murderers.

[Ramo]

Here's an example close to home...my home anyways...our very own Pee Wee Gaskins, of South Carolina.

Killed 13 (that he admitted to....but he also gleefully said that they'd never FIND all the bodies) and they locked him up for life in a maximum security prison.

Of course, that didn't stop him from killing four more and seriously injuring another before they finally had enough and put him to death.

What does the kinder, gentler approach do about (very real) cases like Mr. Gaskins? Slap his wrists?

Incapacitate him either through physical restraints. Keep him isolated.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Ramo
That's nonsense. People committ murders thinking that they won't get caught - or, more likely, they're not thinking about their future at all. They don't think that life in prison is acceptable or that that can somehow fake an insanity defense.

More acceptable than dying, though.