If Bush is considered 'What is Republican'...

[MrBaggins]

Originally posted by CharlesBHoff


Democracies in the past didnot honour long term contacts of merant the real creator of wealth. While Depots honour long term contacts of merants than they where more willing to protect craftman and merant on they trade route. Dictatorship doesnot alway mean stagnation in science or commerce. Roman Empire invert the first steam engine to open huge heavy temple door in Egypt. Arab Muslim conquest Egypt learn how to built steam engine to use in mineing to pump out bad air and pump in good air and to drain water from mine. European learn about strean engine in 11th or 12th century use in mineing.

Rome during the time of it's empire wasn't a true dictatorship, since there was devolved power... it was more akin to an early feudal system.

Egypt also included theocratic elements for the majority of its preeminence.

Whats your point about steam power in specific?

Far more scientific development has occured in democracies than in dictatorships... primarily most of it in the US, Western Europe and some of the Pacific rim, very recently. Democracies...

Dictatorships like those in Iraq (well... not any more) and Africa lag behind technologically and economically. Why?

[Imran Siddiqui]

I understood Imran to say that deficits and surpluses had no effect whatsoever on triggering recessions or depressions.

By themselves, they don't (there, that's you quote out of context you can use to be a complete idiot and ignore the complexities of the issue). What does is usually the business cycle, which cannot be avoided. States with high deficits also suffer recession. If you want 'proof', the state with the highest debt to GDP in the world is Belgium and they were in a recession just recently. Only fiscal or monatary policy can accelerate or reverse a business cycle trend... sometimes they result in deficits or surpluses.

Of course you totally ignore the fact that if the deficit gets too big, the US will be less attractive as an investment, which will hurt the American economy badly.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

i dont see why we need to run a deficit. if you wanna stimulate the economy, change the reserve requirement, or decrease the rediscount rate, neither of which involve much government action, and definitly doesnt involve increasing interest rates through public sector borrowing. monetary policy is a much more control method of controlling the economy. there is no need for the broad stroke 'deficit spending' which has way more negatives than positives.

[CharlesBHoff]

Originally posted by MrBaggins


Rome during the time of it's empire wasn't a true dictatorship, since there was devolved power... it was more akin to an early feudal system.

Egypt also included theocratic elements for the majority of its preeminence.

Whats your point about steam power in specific?

Far more scientific development has occured in democracies than in dictatorships... primarily most of it in the US, Western Europe and some of the Pacific rim, very recently. Democracies...

Dictatorships like those in Iraq (well... not any more) and Africa lag behind technologically and economically. Why?

Democrate as in Atemic Greek was mob rule which was able to break contact at whin. The other city state have king and a council of elder's where more friendy to merchant as contact where honour. Dictatorship was than Roman inventing where in the Republic time if there was than major crise where the Republic was in real danger the senato appointed one man to be Dictator for 6 month with absouble power over life and death with no appeal. Normal two councle rule Rome each able to countercommand the other orders than action of state. All Empour have the title and power of Dictatorship but one who abuse they power didnot for some reason last too long in power.

Too many people say that the Steam Engine was inverted by Jame Watts, he never make just than claim, he claim than mine owner useing steam engines ask him to impove the efficiently of the engine. Watt estimable the eff of the unimpove engine at 1 % or less and he make improvement that incress eff to 10 % by tighter fitting pipe, better boiler design and placement.

[MrBaggins]

Originally posted by CharlesBHoff


Democrate as in Atemic Greek was mob rule which was able to break contact at whin. The other city state have king and a council of elder's where more friendy to merchant as contact where honour. Dictatorship was than Roman inventing where in the Republic time if there was than major crise where the Republic was in real danger the senato appointed one man to be Dictator for 6 month with absouble power over life and death with no appeal. Normal two councle rule Rome each able to countercommand the other orders than action of state. All Empour have the title and power of Dictatorship but one who abuse they power didnot for some reason last too long in power.

Rome had provinces which the emperor did not directly rule. Power was devolved to provincial rulers, typically taken from the upper order of the equestrian class. This system was essentially feudal, Rome collected taxes or tribute from the province and the provincial ruler handled day to day matters.

Too many people say that the Steam Engine was inverted by Jame Watts, he never make just than claim, he claim than mine owner useing steam engines ask him to impove the efficiently of the engine. Watt estimable the eff of the unimpove engine at 1 % or less and he make improvement that incress eff to 10 % by tighter fitting pipe, better boiler design and placement.

Whats the point of an invention with no good application? Haven't democracies shown far more ingenuity in not only invention, but also application?

[Ned]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

I understood Imran to say that deficits and surpluses had no effect whatsoever on triggering recessions or depressions.

By themselves, they don't (there, that's you quote out of context you can use to be a complete idiot and ignore the complexities of the issue). What does is usually the business cycle, which cannot be avoided. States with high deficits also suffer recession. If you want 'proof', the state with the highest debt to GDP in the world is Belgium and they were in a recession just recently. Only fiscal or monatary policy can accelerate or reverse a business cycle trend... sometimes they result in deficits or surpluses.

Of course you totally ignore the fact that if the deficit gets too big, the US will be less attractive as an investment, which will hurt the American economy badly.

I am not going to call you an idiot, Imran, because I would get banned, I am not going to call you an stubborn fool, as I would get banned, I am not going to tell you what I really think of you, because I would get banned, but I find it amazing that you finally concede the very point I have been arguing and call be an idiot to boot.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
i dont see why we need to run a deficit. if you wanna stimulate the economy, change the reserve requirement, or decrease the rediscount rate, neither of which involve much government action, and definitly doesnt involve increasing interest rates through public sector borrowing. monetary policy is a much more control method of controlling the economy. there is no need for the broad stroke 'deficit spending' which has way more negatives than positives.

Changing the reserve requirement is why the '90s were a boom. We ran out of reserve leverage, though, by the end of the decade.

[Ned]

Charles, can you give me link to the history of the steam engine you seem to be quoting?

Also, I think the critical thing about honoring contracts is the rule of law. Babylon and Rome were known for the rule of law. One was a dictatorship. The other was not.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I am not going to call you an idiot, Imran, because I would get banned, I am not going to call you an stubborn fool, as I would get banned, I am not going to tell you what I really think of you, because I would get banned, but I find it amazing that you finally concede the very point I have been arguing and call be an idiot to boot.

Because you are an idiot. You don't get economics whatsoever. The position of the deficit/surplus really doesn't matter, especially compared to how you got there! Fiscal and monetary policy determine the economy's movement much more than simply +/- of revenues. Though, of course, too much of a deficit will cause great problems in terms of interest rates... and if Europe becomes a good investment oppertunity with the EU, the US is in big trouble.

When economists speak of 'deficit spending' they mean cutting taxes or increasing government spending during recession. But, of course, you're utterly lack of understanding didn't grasp that.

[Ned]

Imran, your explanation of your position is crap because it does not address anything I said. You again state that fiscal "policy" does effect the economy which is exactly what I have been saying. In other words, you have once agains erected your oponents strawman, knocked it down and declare yourself an god of debate. This is why, my dear dense Imran, the one who is an idiot here is certainly not me.

[Imran Siddiqui]

your explanation of your position is crap because it does not address anything I said.

Of course it does, you stated that surpluses lead to recession. My explination totally destroys your point. Of course you are too pig headed to admit it and try to change what you said. Instead of saying surpluses/deficits by themselves do not mean anything for the economy, you want to go to fiscal policy because you realize you've been beat.

I think if you made a poll, many, many people would consider you the idiot here.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

ok, lets look at this. from what i can see, Ned says to make economy go, use fiscal policy. i say, to make economy go, use OMO.

Deficit spending = higher interest rates, appreciation of currency, less exports, more imports (larger current account deficit), more FDI, and FI, inflation, crowding out, increased AD, increased employment

Rediscount rate decrease = inflation, lower interest rates, depreciation of currency, more exports, less imports (smaller current account deficit), less FDI and FI, increased AD.

Reserve Requirement = inflation, lower interest rates, depreciation of currency, more exports, less imports, less FDI and FI, increased AD.

looks like monetary policy is better.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

and wtf? surpluses lead to recessions? are u mad? all you have to do is increase the money supply to offset the lost liquidity.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
and wtf? surpluses lead to recessions? are u mad? all you have to do is increase the money supply to offset the lost liquidity.

Well, at least you agree that surpluses must be offset by monetary growth.

Lawrence, the point of the article I cited was that at times monetary policy simply was not enough, pointing at Japan.

Also, I think you underestimate the deflationary effect of the stock market collapse.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
and wtf? surpluses lead to recessions? are u mad? all you have to do is increase the money supply to offset the lost liquidity.

Follow the dollars. They are used to buy the debt back. There is no lost liquidity.