NASA to annouce life on Mars

[Ned]

Big Crunch, one of the problems with the development of our oceans is that there is no international governmental body that can issue deeds and concessions. There are treaties that say the oceans (and outer space) are the common resource of all mankind and some other such bull. All this results in is a complete absence of exploration and development of the ocean by private enterprise.

[Dauphin]

Does oil exploration occur in international waters?

[Whoha]

heh

[Ned]

Originally posted by Big Crunch
Does oil exploration occur in international waters?

You are going to have to ask the experts on that issue. However the North Sea seems to be managed by treaty between Norway and the UK.

[SnowFire]

http://www.livejournal.com/users/spiritrover/

http://www.livejournal.com/users/opportunitygrrl/

I almost spit my drink out of my nose when reading these.

[Ned]

Speaking of space tourists, the Senate just pass a bill on the topic:

http://www.space.com/news/tourism_congress_040305.html

[Az]

One is not going to have private enterprise doing anything on the Moon or Mars until some governmental organization begins to grant real property deeds and concession rights. I think the US ought to enter into bilateral treaties with countries willing to invest in the development of Mars exploration to set up an interantional agency ala the IMF to issue such deeds and concessions. Participation on the Space IMF board would be proportional to members financial contribution.

I see little in the way of private capital investment in space except niche industries. Those won't be able in no way to lift the martian economy. In the moon, a futuristic dock industry is quite feasible, as well as mining for rare ores, and the supporting services industries, together with much more realistic tourism.. In Mars, gravity is big problem, and won't be able to support this. the only potential for extracting capital from the red planet back to earth is a very small tourism sector ( consider travel time), and a niche 'martian memorabilia" sector.

In short, the flow of capital between Mars and Earth is quite close to being impossible. Only a massive one-time government investment, that would yield no profits except side-discoveries and technologies, is a feasible way of Martian colonization. After that, with enough people on Mars itself, an independent Martian economy will emerge. It will because it must, and because it makes economical sense. Space is the ultimate trade barrier, and will make domestic production far more viable than any import of goods.

[The Viceroy]

I think its worth looking to 1492 as an example of what finally made European nations start real hard exploration and colonisation. And I also think its interesting to note, it made superpowers out of them.

The Technology was there to travers the Atlantic long before it was actually completed by the major European nations, as the Vikings will bear witness.

However, it was economics that pushed the vikings there, Economics which got the Europeans interest, and unless we have an economical case to go to mars, it will remain the haunt of scientists and robots.

If we were able to create good sized habitable zones, then there would be much work available, mining, resource transformation, industrial application, food creation ..

Question is, who'd go, knowing there life was dependant on habitable zones ?? well, I can think of a few hundred million people who currently live in area's without access to clean water, earning less than a $1 a day, who's lives are blighted with disease and have no idea where the next meal is coming from ... I think they would move over..

[Az]

At first, Viceroy, I thought the same way. Then, I realized what a big trouble trade will be. much bigger than cross Atlantic sailing ever was.

[The Mad Monk]

It won't be that bad once things are running, because specialized spacecraft for given routes and cargoes will bring costs down -- much like Europe developed galleons, and later, clippers, to handle the demands of ocean going trade.

The simple fact that spececraft need never land, given shuttles, means that they can utilize configurations, materials, technologies and energy sources that would be unthinkable for a craft regularly landing on Earth.

[Az]

Yes, they will bring costs down. But how much down? let's say tenfold. Hell, even two-hundred fold. Trade is still fudged, by costs still being much much more than the product itself, due to transport expenditure. Another big problem is delivery times that would be in the months while ever increasing efficiency on earth makes it days.
AND OF COURSE THIS IS IN THE OPTIMAL CASE OF EARTH AND MARS BEING CLOSE TO EACH OTHER. When they're on different sides of the sun, it sucks. So what can Mars export? raw supplies? Nope. Transport costs will kill it, except in the cases of rare ores. ( which are yet to be discovered on Mars).
manufactured goods? nope. By the time they're on earth, they'd be obsolete/old-fashioned, etc.

The shuttle is a another transshipment point, which is always a minus.

All of these don't bring me to think that Mars shouldn't be colonized. Mars has the resources to create good living conditions for about a billion more people, and that's a good enough reason to go.

What I claim is that earth will have to fund it with no return, and that Mars will be established as an almost complete autarky (Except information, and even that will be mass media, and scienfic, and technological data, and not interactive content, which is gaining more and more ground on earth).

It will be much like a modern-day parent raising their kids fully knowing that it's not profitable, but doing it anyway.


( That's a whole different issue, btw. We should make it profitable, to a limit )

[The Mad Monk]

Not just costs, speed.

http://fti.neep.wisc.edu/research/pro.html

http://www.spacetransportation.com/ast/abstracts/9C_Turner.html

A particularly promising approach for space propulsion, among several competing concepts that are beyond our modern technical capabilities, is a pulsed thermonuclear fusion thruster wherein neutron-lean microfusion detonations are initiated and expelled by a magnetic nozzle, as seen in Figure 1. The charged particle expansion velocity in these detonations can be on the order of 106 - 107 m/s and if effectively collimated by a magnetic nozzle, can yield the Isp and acceleration levels needed for practical interplanetary flight. Methods for inductively extracting electrical power from the compressed magnetic field can also be envisioned. This is an integral component of the





scheme since the energy needed to ignite the subsequent detonation is extremely high. In any case, the long-term development of space propulsion/power systems based on a highenergy- density detonation scheme presents several practical engineering obstacles with respect to effective containment of the plasma and efficient compression of the magnetic field. For example, to achieve satisfactory confinement and high compression efficiency, it is extremely important to minimize magnetic diffusion losses into the plasma and into the reaction chamber wall. Along these lines, NASA MSFC and UAH are jointly exploring various propulsion/power schemes based on the compression of a magnetic field between a high magnetic Reynolds number expanding plasma armature and a highly conductive stator shell[1]. The team is currently conducting basic research utilizing a small pulse plasma gun to produce a high-speed, high-temperature plasma jet. This configuration is useful for investigating flux compression and plasmadynamic processes of relevance to the pulsed microfusion propulsion concept. A critical need is the reliable measurement of plasma jet electrical conductivity. In previous work, we have demonstrated how a simple inductive probe can be used to directly measure the conductivity of each plasma jet[2]. In this previous paper, we described the development of an inductive probe that can utilize the perturbation of a magnetic field by the plasma jet to infer the plasma electrical conductivity. The excitation field was produced by a solenoidal coil, and the field perturbations were detected by a small pick-up coil. Furthermore, this research showed that the plasma jets produced magnetic Reynolds numbers high enough to warrant testing of scaled magnetic flux compression reactors. In this paper, we will describe the ongoing research of magnetic flux compression reactors through the development of a scaled version of a reactor such as seen in Figure 1.

[Az]

what speeds are we talking? ( this still doesn't adress the 'other side of the sun' problem, btw )

In any case, Mars STILL won't be able to be competitive to earth standards. A possible solution would be extreme enviromental regulation on earth, creating an eco-paradise here, while shifting the crap to there. But standards of living will plummet here, as product costs will rise. The moon seems like a solid solution of shifting industry, problem being, it lacks many of the chemical elements needed.

[Urban Ranger]

Some things benefit from Mars's low gravity and temperature. Sure, the moon is closer and has lower gravity still. The only problem with the moon is raw materials.

[The Mad Monk]

Compared to the costs of bringing them from Earth, the cost of extracting raw materials from the Moon is quite reasonable.