Democracy in Cuba

[Sprayber]

Why does everyone get a hard on for revolutions?

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by Sava
absolutely... my point is that if you are going to hate dictators and oppressive regimes, you should hate them all. If not, yer a hypocrit.

I'm a lover these days Sava. But I can still call someone an ******* and all dictators are *******s. For the most part I think we can agree on who is a dictator and who is not, with perhaps an exception or two.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Sava
You see, this is where Commies get it wrong. You can't compare the evils of slavery with someone retaining ownership of capital that they created, earned, or worked for.

I didn't say there was anything wrong with keeping what you work for. But when you use it to own capital, that's exploitation. It doesn't matter how much capital you own. It's still exploitation.

Originally posted by Sava
What I have a problem with is institutionalized systems that generate wealth for people at the top. I think any system or government institution should benefit the least fortunate and most needy. The strong should protect the weak; and a free society should be institutionally compassionate...

An economic system should be fair. Those with wealth have an inherent advantage in creating more wealth. Progressive taxation is not only fair, it is practical. And in terms of maintaining healthy capitalist markets, you need a strong consumer base to support business. If the state keeps people healthy, education, and working; they can earn money and spend it, fueling the economy. This is where supply side economics fails. It is as flawed an ideology as communism.

I respect that. The problem that I see is that plenty of people have a vested interest in a system that rewards property owners at the expense of the masses. Owning capital must be illegal.

[Theben]

Originally posted by Ned
I raise this question because all prior examples of "communism" appear to rely on censorship and control of the media. All. Not some. All.

This is not an aberation.

This has to be inherent in communism.

And the reason it is inherent is obvious.

It has more to do with the fact that the original communist state quickly became a dictatorship, and had no small hand in developing other movements around the world. All were tainted by the Stalinist regime of the USSR.

Did the original democracy in Greece grant freedoms to everyone? No, only Athenian male citizens. Did we abandon democracy? No.

Were the mercantile economies democratic? No, they were monarchist. But we kept and developed the capitalist system.

The ideological foundation is there. We just need a working example; unlikely as any that does look to succeed will quickly be attacked by capitalist nations.

[rah]

Communism= a impossible wonderful fantasy used by evil con men to whip the masses into a frenzy to ferment revoloution promising a workers paradise, but resulting in a brutal authoritative dictatorship that will never "whither away" but must be blown away.

[Sava]

For the most part I think we can agree on who is a dictator and who is not, with perhaps an exception or two.

absolutely... only I think some of your assumptions about "who" I might consider to be a dictator would be in error.

Kid: Capital is simply the relative value of anything... if I build a clay pot, and sell it, the money I have (capital) is the reflection of my labor. The basic premise of your ideology is flawed. Denying people the right to keep the capital gained from the fruits of labor is more immoral and unjust than the exploitation that large amounts of capital allow.

The latter can be counteracted with tax policy. Frankly, the estate tax needs to be brought back. Also, government can have tax policies that make it easier to acquire and build wealth by being progressive.

There is no perfect system Kid, we should instead seek to sculpt one that can be as fair as possible. And solve each problem, or cross each bridge as we get to it.

[Sava]

Communism= a impossible wonderful fantasy used by evil con men to whip the masses into a frenzy to ferment revoloution promising a workers paradise, but resulting in a brutal authoritative dictatorship that will never "whither away" but must be blown away.

I couldn't have summed it up better.

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by Sava
absolutely... only I think some of your assumptions about "who" I might consider to be a dictator would be in error.

Perhaps so. That's why a drill sergent of mine once told me that assumptions are the mother of all **** ups.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Sava
Kid: Capital is simply the relative value of anything... if I build a clay pot, and sell it, the money I have (capital) is the reflection of my labor. The basic premise of your ideology is flawed. Denying people the right to keep the capital gained from the fruits of labor is more immoral and unjust than the exploitation that large amounts of capital allow.

The fact is that most people are not self-employed. Capitalism is dependent on exploitation. It is dependent on class conflict.

You know I wasn't talking about self-employment. What I was talking about was using your resources to profit from someone elses work.

[Sava]

Originally posted by Kidicious
The fact is that most people are not self-employed. Capitalism is dependent on exploitation. It is dependent on class conflict.

You know I wasn't talking about self-employment. What I was talking about was using your resources to profit from someone elses work.

In order to counter-act this, government tax policy must reward independent business and entepreneurialship. Corporations have contributed some good things to society. But they are wayyyyyy too powerful without accountability.

In a Sava society, tax policy would be progressive, and there would be a strong emphasis on small business.

Denying people the right to possess capital comes in conflict with the ideals of freedom and democracy. We should work within these basic ideals to formulate a system that is compatible with these ideals while also being fair.

[Sava]

Kid, and to be fair to the idea of free markets and capitalism, your complaints seem to be with "corporatism"... just like I scold the anti-commies for blurring Stalinism with Communism, I'm going to have to spank you if you lump in capitalism for the abuses of corporatism.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Sava
In order to counter-act this, government tax policy must reward independent business and entepreneurialship. Corporations have contributed some good things to society. But they are wayyyyyy too powerful without accountability.

In a Sava society, tax policy would be progressive, and there would be a strong emphasis on small business.

Denying people the right to possess capital comes in conflict with the ideals of freedom and democracy. We should work within these basic ideals to formulate a system that is compatible with these ideals while also being fair.

Greed is the foundation of capitalism. It's greed that provides the incentive that drives capitalism. It doesn't work without it.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Sava
Kid, and to be fair to the idea of free markets and capitalism, your complaints seem to be with "corporatism"... just like I scold the anti-commies for blurring Stalinism with Communism, I'm going to have to spank you if you lump in capitalism for the abuses of corporatism.

Capitalism is a system that grants property owners priviledge. I'm assuming you define corporatism as a system that grants priviledge to corporations. I see little difference.

[Arrian]

Woohoo! It's Capitalism vs. Communism again!

Sava vs. Kid?

Reading may be hazardous to your brain.

-Arrian

[Sava]

Originally posted by Kidicious
Greed is the foundation of capitalism. It's greed that provides the incentive that drives capitalism. It doesn't work without it.

So? Do you plan to eliminate greed? A worldwide WAR ON GREED? Design me a system that works... until then....

zzzzZZZZZzzzzZZZZzzzz

the best we can do is work with what we've got and try to make things as fair as possible... there will always be have's and have not's... your little fantasy world will never exist kid. Deal with it. Then when you get some sense, we can talk.