Mahler

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov

And the hammer blows are the blows of fate, not the "horror" chord that opens the movement (which appears a total of 4 times, actually).

Isn't this being picky? Didn't Mahler say that the hero receives three blows of fate even though it is a fact only two hammer blows were finally scored?

I mean # 2 opens around a grave acc. to some accounts, but there is no literal grave.

edit: I had a look around and that's what Mahler said.

I also came across this gem about the 6th from one of your enemies.

There's a tightrope to walk between honesty and hysteria, emotional blackness and emotional blackmail...between Boulez and Bernstein, if you want me to come right out and say it.

That's unfair, but...

[Spiffor]

Why isn't Jamski (our most devot Mahler-lover) spamming this thread?

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Agathon
Isn't this being picky? Didn't Mahler say that the hero receives three blows of fate even though it is a fact only two hammer blows were finally scored?

Since there are four iterations of the opening horror chord, saying they are the three blows of fate is rather nonsensical. The hammer blows are the fate blows, because they come as the music is trying to cadence in the major. It's the possibility of impending joy being crushed by a blow of fate, which sends things crashing back into the minor key tumult.

I've no doubt Mahler said three because initially there were three. His removal of the third wasn't done for artistic purposes, but rather out of his own superstition

That's unfair, but...

Who is this enemy? I will smite him.

Bernstein isn't too "hysterical" for the 6th, IMO. The 6th calls for hysteria! It's perhaps the symphony most suited to his particular brand of histrionicism!

I only wish Furtwangler had conducted the Mahler symphonies. I can't imagine the hair-raising results that would have occured.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov

Since there are four iterations of the opening horror chord, saying they are the three blows of fate is rather nonsensical. The hammer blows are the fate blows, because they come as the music is trying to cadence in the major. It's the possibility of impending joy being crushed by a blow of fate, which sends things crashing back into the minor key tumult.

I've no doubt Mahler said three because initially there were three. His removal of the third wasn't done for artistic purposes, but rather out of his own superstition

Don't accuse me of confusing the blows of fate with something else.

I never said that. I've just wondered if the third blow was supposed to be implied rather than experienced - I didn't think it was something else in the score. I'm perfectly happy to concede your point if that was Mahler's reasoning, but I can imagine that this has been furiously debated on Mahler message boards (and people think that Poly debates are venomous).

Anyway...

You provide no evidence, you provide NOTHING... and yet you want to accuse people of confusing the figurative with the literal in the works of a late romantic composer... you criminal.

Who is this enemy? I will smite him.

Some hack reviewing Tilson Thomas's recording for the BBC. Prophetically, he also said something like "Lenny's hordes would rush to his defence foaming at the mouth. "

Looks like he was right.

Bernstein isn't too "hysterical" for the 6th, IMO. The 6th calls for hysteria! It's perhaps the symphony most suited to his particular brand of histrionicism!

If any symphony is suited to that.

At least we've found another button to push along with the tired old Brahms button (BTW - I thought Molly was unfair to Brahms - it's not my cup of tea, but I wouldn't call it slop).

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Agathon
You provide no evidence, you provide NOTHING... and yet you want to accuse people of confusing the figurative with the literal in the works of a late romantic composer... you criminal.

[Asher]

Was Mahler cute?

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Agathon

At least we've found another button to push along with the tired old Brahms button (BTW - I thought Molly was unfair to Brahms - it's not my cup of tea, but I wouldn't call it slop).

Oh dear- shall I post 'Warning! Heavy Irony!' or 'Jolly Jape Coming' before making provocative comments?

Brahms ain't my demi-tasse of ristretto in classical music-I happen to be passionate about Baroque and Early Music, especially choral and church music. I don't think Brahms is slop, 'twas simply a goad to Barearse Grabenuff.

And I liked Abbess Hildegard of Bingen before the frickin' frackin' New Agers found out about her, and I had a substantial collection of Gregorian chant and Byzantine and Mozarabic choral works well before that Enigma guy popularized it. The virtues of a Catholic education and participation in the church and school choir.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Asher
Was Mahler cute?

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Agathon
Don't accuse me of confusing the blows of fate with something else.

You said there were four, so I had to think you've confused them with something else. There are only three instances in the movement where it attempts to cadence in the major. If you had a score I could direct you to the exact measures where they occur.

There are four iterations of the horror chord, however. Only three of those have the tam-tam crash, though. So it's understandable people could construe those as the blows of fate, but they aren't.

I'm perfectly happy to concede your point if that was Mahler's reasoning, but I can imagine that this has been furiously debated on Mahler message boards (and people think that Poly debates are venomous).

In this instance, there isn't much debate that I've seen--it's well-known why Mahler excised the third blow.

Unfortunately, a lot of what we "know" about Mahler's own meanings are given to us by that lying slut Alma, so it's hard to discern what's his thinking and what's hers.

Some hack reviewing Tilson Thomas's recording for the BBC. Prophetically, he also said something like "Lenny's hordes would rush to his defence foaming at the mouth. "

Looks like he was right.

I'm not one of "Lenny's hordes" by any means. Just ask me what I think about his late Brahms recordings with the VPO. *puke* I don't like, in most instances, what Bernstein does with tempos, although you have to admit he gets amazing sound from the orchestras. But his Mahler 6th is special, and I think it stands as the greatest recorded interpretation of the work available, whether it's "purist" in performance or not. Of course, I have a particular disdain for musical purists.

At least we've found another button to push along with the tired old Brahms button (BTW - I thought Molly was unfair to Brahms - it's not my cup of tea, but I wouldn't call it slop).

I knew molly was just tweaking me. Attempting to, at least. But it's water off a duck's back. How can I get angry, when I'm really just full of pity and sadness for those who can't experience Brahms as I do?

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov

You said there were four, so I had to think you've confused them with something else. There are only three instances in the movement where it attempts to cadence in the major. If you had a score I could direct you to the exact measures where they occur.

There are four iterations of the horror chord, however. Only three of those have the tam-tam crash, though. So it's understandable people could construe those as the blows of fate, but they aren't.

Nope, I didn't say that. Here's what I said about the blows of fate.

Isn't that an insertion by Bernstein? I seem to remember only two in the canonical score, although there are three blows of fate. Mind you it's a long time since I've listened to it. I haven't had enough time for Mahler in ages - or the equipment to do it justice

BTW I think four blows of fate would be excessive.

In this instance, there isn't much debate that I've seen--it's well-known why Mahler excised the third blow.

Unfortunately, a lot of what we "know" about Mahler's own meanings are given to us by that lying slut Alma, so it's hard to discern what's his thinking and what's hers.

Presumably he meant the third to be implied, or it would be dumb to have kept the same program. Something like - there are three blows, but I can't bring myself to score the third.

I'm not one of "Lenny's hordes" by any means. Just ask me what I think about his late Brahms recordings with the VPO. *puke* I don't like, in most instances, what Bernstein does with tempos, although you have to admit he gets amazing sound from the orchestras. But his Mahler 6th is special, and I think it stands as the greatest recorded interpretation of the work available, whether it's "purist" in performance or not. Of course, I have a particular disdain for musical purists.

Oh there's no doubt he's a great conductor. I have a wonderful CD of Copland's music by him which I would not part with.

[/QUOTE]I knew molly was just tweaking me. Attempting to, at least. But it's water off a duck's back. How can I get angry, when I'm really just full of pity and sadness for those who can't experience Brahms as I do? [/QUOTE]

Some of us like a bit more edge and uncertainty than Brahms provides.

[Agathon]

Actually looking around for a copy of the Bernstein I've discovered that my old record shop in NZ (pus cds) has now gone online (it's partly owned by the guy I told you about who saw Klemperer do his famous ninth).

Excellent. I might start ordering from them again.