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  • A moderate neo-Marxist probably accepts the following.

    1. The history of the way human societies are organized is largely explicable in terms of class conflict, where one group of people accrues power to itself in order to dominate and live off the backs of others.

    2. The very concepts that govern our thinking about the way society is organized are themselves largely a product of the system of economic/political relationships we find ourselves in. The concepts of the ruling class tend to predominate and be regarded as self evident. For example the idea of private property came into being with the rise of the mercantile class - such a notion would have been quite alien to people living in a feudal economy.

    3. Capitalism is an unsustainable economic system which relies on fostering expectations among the majority which can never ultimately be realized. It will destroy itself (or us) since it ignores certain fundamentals, like the limits of the environment, in order to sustain economic growth (on which the system depends to sustain itself). It also contains the seeds of its own destruction since the technologies it develops and spreads (such as IT and automated production) tend to undercut any stake the workers have in the system. In the one case by providing them with the capacity to effectively organize and share information outside of the control of the ruling class, in the other by rendering their labour superfluous and destroying their stake in the system.

    4. Capitalism tends to encourage people to live off capital rather than by working. In a sense it penalizes those who produce the goods we enjoy by rewarding people who do not work at all by means of an imaginary social convention called money. People who live off investments or rents do not contribute anything real to the economy and rewarding them is essentially giving them something for nothing.

    5. Capitalism tends to produce massive inequalities because the working class have only their labour to sell and this is treated like any other commodity. The market does not care whether or not people starve to death or die young as long as there is labour to buy. The corrective mechanism for oversupply is obviously the elimination of workers by either death or reduced fertility.

    6. A communist system would attempt to correct for these failures of the market as best as possible - mainly by making decisions about the allocation of resources much more responsive to democratic decision making than private capital.

    7. An social/economic system which treats people as commodities rather than ends in themselves, is by definition morally wrong. Democracy treats people as ends in themselves, capitalism as commodities since capitalism only recognizes workers as labour.

    8. At some point in the development of capitalism the system will collapse under its own weight, just as previous forms of economic organization have done. At that point the rules will change since people will realize that the norms of the old system won't work. If you want to understand what this will be like consider how hard it was for Europeans to convince native peoples to regard land as a commodity and how natural it seems to us. If the point holds then there will come a time where people will regard the capitalist system as governed by superstition and will marvel at how people could have been so dumb. That is why the arguments that communism goes against human nature are flawed, since they fail to recognize that a great deal of what is natural to us is due to class consciousness (see 2.) If it is possible for pre-capitalist peoples to change their ways so radically, there is good reason to believe that capitalism can be overcome.
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    • 9. One way in which capitalism sustains itself is by creating demand for products that people don't really need. It did this by creating (or resulting in) the consumer society. However, human beings are rather limited creatures and there will come a point where we become so overloaded with stuff that this will no longer be possible. One way this occurs is through the use of "cool". "Cool" is a concept which dictates that if everyone has it, it is no longer "cool" but at the same time demands that everyone want it. So most people who buy into "cool" engage in a perpetually self defeating game of competitive consumption. Of course as we get older a lot of us get wise to some aspects of this scheme. The danger for capitalism is that eventually people will wise up, or that "cool" will be transferred to some other sorts of things that the market cannot supply.
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      • Originally posted by Ned
        You could say the same think about Napoleon's Europe - it was beset on all sides by opponents.


        In some ways, Napoleon was progressive, even if he was a war-monger and replaced the revolution with an emperor. His armies spread bourgeois ideals throughout Europe, sweeping away the millenai old cruft of feudalism and seeding the ground for capitalism. Nappy was the father of the 19th Century in all its glory and evil.

        I don't know the details on the Paris Commune.


        In 1871, after Emperor Napoleon III was captured by the Prussians, France had no real government. The bourgeoisie atempted (and succeeded) in setting up a government outside Paris (the forts of which had been occupied by the Prussians). The people of Paris weren't so ready to accept them as the rulers, and when the would be government attempted to sneak the cannon of Paris out, they were discovered (by the morning milk-maids) and the city threw them out and proclaimed a commune.

        It was the first time workers had ever seized the reigns of government in history. The passed laws making night classes possible for workers, made theater free, outlawed night bakery work, etc. All things that would make the life of working people easier. Soon the revolt spread to other cities throughout France. Had the commune struck and tried to capture the provisional government, France might have been the first socialist state. But they did not want to start a fight and rather negotiated with the provisional government. The government used this time to gather strength, and Bismark knowing a dangerous thing when he saw it, allowed the French to gather troops from the POW camps (and IIRC allowed them to occupy the Paris forts).

        Around France, the French government attacked various cities and brought them back under control. Then after 71 days, the French invaded Paris, destroying whole working class neighborhoods and slaughtering tens of thousands. The fires burned for days. So ended our first attempt.

        I don't think communist China was oppressed by anyone.


        The US did. Before WWII, we had volunteers over there fighting for Chaing Kai-Shek (The Flying Tigers among others). Chennault was an strident anti-commie. Much of the war materials we gave to China were used against the Red Army, even as Mao was fighting the Japanese. After the war, when it looked like Shang-hai would be occupied by the Reds, the US used its transports to move nationalist armies from the South to the North. We tried to supply war matierals to the Nationalists after the war, but apparently the Merchant Marine was having none of it and mutinied. We also trained and funed ChiNat terrorists/guerilas until the early 60s.

        Allegedly, though, the ChiComs killed 35 million landlords. Why?


        Don't know. This is the first I've heard of it.

        Why was it necessary to kill so many Russian and Ukrainian peasants? Surely they were not the enemy.


        It was "necessary" to preserve Stalin and the bureaucracy which had put him in power. It is certainly not something that wuold have happened had my faction won, the Trotskyists.

        I don't understand your beaten dog analogy unless you mean that Stalin was not a true communist, and neither was Mao, or Ho, or Fidel.


        What I mean is, if you constantly invade a country and send terrorists and guerallia and spies in to make trouble, that country is going to become very defensieve, very paranoid, and very repressive.

        Who was a real communist then. What does communism stand for in reality?


        That really depends on who you ask. I would say that people like Lenin, Trotsky, Luxemburg, etc. were real communists. Even Stalin and Mao were at first, although I would say their level of theoretical understanding was somewhat lacking. But Stalin based his power on the bureaucracy, and convoluted the revolution and communism to fit his needs.

        Mao tried to adapt Marxism to the circumstance in which he found himself, which was basically most of the top leadership slaughtered, the Communists driven from the cities, the only force capable of fighting the nationalsist being the peasantry. (It should be noted that not all of the Communist leadership was erradicated, and they continued to toil secretly in the cities, eventually having to escape to Hong Kong after Mao took over the country.)

        Castro I don't think was any kind of commie at first, but I think he's become one (albeit not a very good one). He, like many others (Ho, Pot, Kim, etc.) , simply adopted Marxism to suit his nationalism. At first he said he was a Marxist to stick it to the U.S. who had tried to kill him, but came to believe it.
        Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

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        • Agathon, why does one have to descirbe communism in terms of a critique of capitalism?

          If I understand the goal, communism requires near infinite productivity so that property and goods are essentially free. The holy grail of a communist would then be to increase productivity, because as productivity increases, property decreases in value, and democracy results naturally.

          No so?
          http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en

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          • Originally posted by Ned
            Marx apparently never dealt with the practical consequences of imposing communism on a realtively poor society. Or did he?
            He said it was not possible. He did make an exception for Russia because in Russia, at the time, there was still a communal form of property among the peasantry which Marx felt could serve as the basis of socialism if a revolution in Russia was the spark which caused Western capitalist nations to become workers states. It would only be through the aid of advance industrial societies that Russia could then advance to socialism and communism. For Marxists, socialism and communism presuppose a high degree of industrial capacity.

            Lenin knew this and said, "We do not make the revolution for Russia, but for Germany." His hope, his elusive dream, was that the workers of Germany would overthrown the junkers and capitalists and join the workers and peasants of Russia, and together they could build socialism. Theoertically, either the Germans should have had a revolution or the Russians should have been crushed. There wasn't supposed to be a stalemate.

            At this point, our side really didn't know what to do. Socialism/Communism isn't supposed to come to power in a non-industrial society. This was totally new ground, and I'm sorry to say, we screwed up (though it wasn't entirely our fault).
            Last edited by chequita guevara; January 15, 2004, 20:08.
            Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

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            • Originally posted by chegitz guevara

              Castro I don't think was any kind of commie at first, but I think he's become one (albeit not a very good one). He, like many others (Ho, Pot, Kim, etc.) , simply adopted Marxism to suit his nationalism. At first he said he was a Marxist to stick it to the U.S. who had tried to kill him, but came to believe it.
              This is true. He was converted by Ernesto Guevara. In essence Fidel is a pretty good guy in a terrible situation. He was immediately forced to prostitute Cuba to the USSR which he didn't want to do, and has been under embargo and attack from the US ever since. Despite that he's done a lot of good things.

              For example, unlike other similar Latin American countries, Cuban children go to (very good) schools instead of sewing baseballs for 2 cents a day. The general health of the Cuban population is exemplary and they have for years been renowned as having the best teeth in the world due to socialised dental care.

              Guevara's version of Marxism is very compelling since it tends to deal with political reality. On his view the elites of wealthy countries are basically at war with the third world which they exploit the hell out of, often under the guise of "doing good". There can be no hope of real democracy in these countries until the dominant powers are thrown out by armed struggle and reduced in capacity so that they cannot blockade or otherwise isolate the renegades.
              Only feebs vote.

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              • Originally posted by Ned
                Agathon, why does one have to descirbe communism in terms of a critique of capitalism?


                Because communism is at one and the same time, the opposite of capitalism and the natural outgrowth of capitalism. Without capitalism, there can be no possibiity of socialism.

                If I understand the goal, communism requires near infinite productivity so that property and goods are essentially free. The holy grail of a communist would then be to increase productivity, because as productivity increases, property decreases in value, and democracy results naturally.

                No so?


                Essentially. The democracy should be there to begin with, but with the withering away of property, democracy should become a good deal safer from those who would bend it (or break it) to increase their property.
                Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

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                • Originally posted by Ned
                  Agathon, why does one have to descirbe communism in terms of a critique of capitalism?
                  Because communism arises by an organic process from the contradictions of capitalism. We, living as we do in a capitalist society, will only gain an understanding of why communism is necessary when we can effectively see what is wrong with capitalism.

                  If I understand the goal, communism requires near infinite productivity so that property and goods are essentially free.
                  Uh... no.

                  Communism merely substitutes one form of distribution of goods for another. A democratic form for a capitalist form.

                  Look, all a market really is, is a mechanism for the distribution of scarce resources, but it isn't the only possible one. We distribute scarce resources in all sorts of ways. For example, we distribute university places by means of examinations and places on sports teams by merit. We even sometimes distribute goods randomly as occurs in lotteries.

                  Thus there need not be one way of distributing scarce resources. Given the compromises that even capitalism has had to make, there is no reason to think that practicalities might not force communists in directions currently unthought of.
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                  • You will note, Ned, that we commies can disagree.
                    Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

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                    • Uh Che, I better let you take this one, since we are saying much the same things (although I left out the productivity bit as I don't think it requires infinite productivity or that such a thing is feasible - scarcity will always be with us in one form or another).
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                      • Originally posted by chegitz guevara
                        You will note, Ned, that we commies can disagree.
                        I don't think there is radical disagreement here. I just think we owe the enemy an answer as to how we will confront scarcity and opportunity costs.
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                        • The search for productivity thus explains modern China.
                          http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en

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                          • Engels wrote that the idea was to be so productive that theft would be a pointless waste of time. Why steal what is free? It's not an easy idea to get your head around as to how it would work practically. Ken MacLeod describes such a society in The Cassini Division, which takes place after Earth has finaly become communist (with little libertarian enclaves).
                            Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

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                            • Originally posted by Ned
                              The search for productivity thus explains modern China.
                              I think that is the case, yes.
                              Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

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                              • I would also suggest that an communist regime errors if it places a higher priority on anything other than productivity increases.
                                http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en

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