Simon Trinidad Captured

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Whoha
No Sava, we need a total embargo, if people want to get stoned/high/whatever here, then they should have to buy American damnit!

For some curious reason cocaine will not grow anywhere other than the mountains of South America. Towards the end of the nineteenth century, when cocaine was still legal and was the only effective topical anesthetic available there were numerous attempts by colonial powers to raise cocaine crops in Africa, Asia and North America. None succeeded, and no one knows why.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Tripledoc
Now if it was not because certain Western governments are actively involved in supporting the Columbian government, Columbia would evidently fairly soon turn Communist.

I call BS. Granted most of your posts are in fact pure BS from start to finish but this part was too much to let go without demanding some shread of proof be pulled from your arse.

[Ted Striker]

Okay you've called BS

You can either try and onside kick or take a shot from the 3 point line

Which one do you choose?

[DinoDoc]

I'll take the shot.

[Buck Birdseed]

Of course Colombia needs reform, and that can only be accomplished by the "clean" centre or centre-left politicians who're not tied up with either the FARC on one hand or the Drugs Cartels and corrupt business on the other.



Hey, wait a second. THERE AREN'T ANY. No trade unions, no political parties near the centre, no willing reformers who represent the population against the dangerous elites. And why not? CAUSE THEY'VE ALL BEEN BLOODY MURDERED BY THE PARAMILITARIES, for ****'s sake. Sorry I'm shouting, but the FARC are a relatively minor actor as far as political disruption is concerned. Paramilitaries kill over twice as many civilians every year, "the vast majority" according to Amnesty, in a country which has the highest political murder rate in the world, over 10 000 people a year if reports are to be believed. All of this, of course, is happening in collusion with the Colombian security forces and the army, which of course is funded by the US to the tune of $27 million a year.

[Ted Striker]

bottom line is that it's the US's fault

[Dr Strangelove]

You know that guy used to play the holographic doctor on the Star Trek series Voyager. I guess that after the series was cancelled he just couldn't give up the high life. I wonder what he's shouting to the soldiers dragging him away? Probably something about what the Federation will do to them when he's reported to be missing.

[Whoha]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove


For some curious reason cocaine will not grow anywhere other than the mountains of South America. Towards the end of the nineteenth century, when cocaine was still legal and was the only effective topical anesthetic available there were numerous attempts by colonial powers to raise cocaine crops in Africa, Asia and North America. None succeeded, and no one knows why.

more research needs to be done

[pchang]

So what's the deal?

Is the capture of Simon Trinidad a good thing or not? It's hard to tell if Tripledoc and Birdseed think so.

[Buck Birdseed]

Is he a criminal who needs to be brought to justice? Yup. Is it good for the future of Colombia? Not as sure. A paramilitary "win" could be devastating.

[pchang]

Why does his capture necessarily imply a win for the paramilitaries. Maybe its the first step in the long and winding road to the estalibhment of the rule of law.

[chequita guevara]

I don't think so. For all the problems of the FARC, they are the lessor of three evils, the drug lord's paramilitaries being the worst, and only slightly in 2nd place, the government military, many of whom, if not active in the paramilitaries themselves, either aid them or turn a blind eye to their depredations.

What are the the main accusations leveled against the FARC? One, they are narco-terrorists. Two, they engage in kidnapping for profit. Three, the indiscriminately massacre civilians.

I'll deal with the third one first. Yes, it does happen, very rarely, that the FARC engages in an attrocity, the most famous being the packed church that was set fire. Of course, almost everyone says that was an accident, even the people who suruvived, occcuring during a fight between the FARC and the paras. Given that the U.S. may have killed as many as some seven to nine thousand civilians in two wars in the past couple years, we aren't really in much of a position to criticize the FARC when "collateral damage" occurs, no matter how horrifying.

As to number one, detailed analysis of the FARC-coca connection show that the FARC does not grow coca, nor do they engage directly in the coca trade. What they do do is protect coca farmers from the drug lords, ensure the drug lords pay a fair price for the coca leaves, and tax the drugs lords. I know this may be too fine a point for you to distinguish, however. I don't think drugs should be illegal, so I don't have a problem with this.

Finally, number two. The FARC engages in kidnapping for ransome. This is true. Nor is it mitigated by the fact that they usually will accept less than 10% of the demanded money, nor the fact that at least they aren't killing them outright, like the paras do, nor by the fact that kidnapping for ransome is a popular "pasttime" in Columbia. "Defenders" of the people should not be engaging in such activity, unless you're kidnapping government members or members of the ruling familes.

In addition to these major charges, the FARC also is known to shang-hai people into service, use children as soldiers, and urban bombings.

Ultimately, the major difference between the two sides (as the government and the paras are effectivly allies), is that one side is repsonsible for over 75% of the killings in Columbia and is responsible for driving millions of peasants off the land. The other side is the FARC.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by pchang
Why does his capture necessarily imply a win for the paramilitaries. Maybe its the first step in the long and winding road to the estalibhment of the rule of law.

Because the paras are basically a de facto force of the ruling classes of Columbia, and if not directly staffed with government soldiers (active and retirees), are actively aided by them, or turned a blind eye. The government transports the paras around the country and doesn't show up to protect villages when the paras are going on a rampage, though they show up ASAP when the FARC or ELN are in the area.

The government in Columbia is one of the worst in the world, mitigated not a whit by the fact that it is nominally democratic. It needs to be overthrown. The paras and the army detroyed root and branch. Only then will Columbia have a chance for peace and justice.

[pchang]

Columbia

is really a mafiacracy. If we can eliminate the massive amounts of money to be made in the drug trade, then and only then will Columbia have a chance at peace and justice.

[chequita guevara]

The money just makes it easier. It is not the root cause of a forty year old war that began twenty years before the Columbian drug trade was established. The root cause of the war is the same as in the Central Amerian wars during the 80s, a powerful landed "aristocracy" using whatever means necessary to keep control of the government and the land.

Drugs are only part of the problem. For example, one of the major para groups is run by an emerald baron, who uses them to drive peasants away from suspected emerald rich land. Other para leaders are ranchers and other plantation owners. Hell, even Coca-Cola has employed them to kill union organizers.