Most/Least Favorite Philosopher and Why?

[Mazarin]

Oncle Boris, your posts read like they are coming from a Grundgesetz patriot In fact, similar arguments have been used by our courts in the past to enforce better welfare laws, which were necessary to ensure the protection of human dignity as the highest goal of our state.

Berzerker,

You do if they agree to be "exploited", if I choose to be "exploited", that too is my freedom. Of course, according to your fictional definition of "freedom", you'd get to over rule all our contracts since we can neither exploit with consent nor consent to be exploited leaving only you to decide which contracts are devoid of exploitation.

Every human being has basic rights that he cannot be deprived of, even if he decides to sell them: contracts where somebody sells himself into slavery/ where he sells his organs are violating these rights and are therefore void.

[Fake Boris]

Originally posted by Mazarin
Oncle Boris, your posts read like they are coming from a Grundgesetz patriot In fact, similar arguments have been used by our courts in the past to enforce better welfare laws, which were necessary to ensure the protection of human dignity as the highest goal of our state.

What is a 'Grundgesetz patriot'? Forgive my ignorance.

The words sounds German. Are you from Germany?

[GePap]

Originally posted by Ned
GePap, what you describe as "socialist" could also be described as "Christian." The whole ethos of Christianity is concern for the poor and less fortunate. That is not something that Marx invented.

But it is not religious or based on the notion of salvation through Christ, thus it can not be just Christian- what you are saying thus is that Jesus's teachings have socialist elements, which I would agree with.

[Mazarin]

Originally posted by Ned
GePap, what you describe as "socialist" could also be described as "Christian." The whole ethos of Christianity is concern for the poor and less fortunate. That is not something that Marx invented.

while I strongy dislike the opinion of many Christian (especially the Catholic) churches on many points, I strongly admire the social opinions of many Christians. They seem to be much closer to "leftist" groups in regard to wealth distribution and welfare than conservatives that like to be labelling themselves christian.

[DAVOUT]

Originally posted by GePap

Does anyone have arguements vs this, as compared to the Leninist and Maoist additions of politicallydriven vanaguards that could somehow kickstart the progress prior to the ful development of the productive forces of capitalism?

Starting with a capitalist system running at the highest possible productivity, and shifting to an ideal communist system where a selection of *useless* products would be stopped in order to make room for social benefits, can be commented as follows :

- the decision that certain products are useless can not be made rationally, unless they are without customers, and in this case the suppression is already made by the capitalist system;
- could it be made rationally, nobody can anticipate the final direct and collateral effect of the decision; the overall productivity cannot be abstractly monitored, and there is a worrying risk that the decline exceeds by far what was expected;
- this is best illustrated by the tremendous positive effect of the competition (there is no exemple of one model car industry satisfying the needs of a population).

The social democracy try, with some success, to allocate to social needs a portion of the yearly increase of GNP; after some years, they have obtained significant results, and their main problem is not to go too far. Is not this a subtile way to apply, without revolution, Marx idea?

[Ned]

Originally posted by GePap


But it is not religious or based on the notion of salvation through Christ, thus it can not be just Christian- what you are saying thus is that Jesus's teachings have socialist elements, which I would agree with.

GePap, since Christ long preceded Marx, I think it is better to say that Socialism has Christian elements.

Christianity has long struggled to take the rough edges off of Western Civilization by advocating more rights and better treatment of the poor and of people such as slaves, serfs and workers. Liberalism was originally associated with Christian ideals, not Marxist ideals.

[Fake Boris]

Originally posted by DAVOUT

The social democracy try, with some success, to allocate to social needs a portion of the yearly increase of GNP; after some years, they have obtained significant results, and their main problem is not to go too far. Is not this a subtile way to apply, without revolution, Marx idea?

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I think it is GePap's point. (And mine too, for that matter).

[Mazarin]

Originally posted by Oncle Boris


What is a 'Grundgesetz patriot'? Forgive my ignorance.

The words sounds German. Are you from Germany?

Its the German constitution. The term of "grundgesetz patriotism" has been one of describing "good" patriotism -as opposed to phrases like "I'm proud to be a German"- in recent debates (we have some problems on this topic others might not have)
The highest principle of the state is described there as following:
"The dignity of men is unimpeachable. All public power has the obligation to respect and protect it"

Your points seemed remarkably similar to many used in decisions from the courts here.

[Ned]

And just for the record, if you strip socialism out of liberalism, which I view almost entirely as misguided economics, you would count me a liberal.

[DAVOUT]

Oncle Boris,

I have spend 41 years in the business, in 6 firms, all in different industries (I hate to say that because it does not qualify positively my opinions - it is just a light on my testimony).

What I have seen and done does not coincide with your picture or the corporate world. The very bad exemples of the last ten years does not depict it either.

A corporation is not an abstract object, it is run by men; the good or bad results obtained are the direct consequences of their decisions. And these men have sometimes to stand up and say *I desagree, I suggest another way*.

Regarding the relations with the workers, and their unions, I used to tell them when we first met : There are two subjects on which the Company will always be in agreement with you, the safety at work, and the conditions of the work; on these two points we share the same interest.

About the salaries and fringes, I discovered that the main concern of the workers is to be fairly treated (they collectively dislike nepotism, me too). Therefore when there was not a clear system enforced, I established one.

And when I was given the order to prepare a layoff of 30% of the workforce, I came back with a plan showing that it was cheaper to use the normal turn over, associated with training and financial measure.

So, Oncle Boris, in my word the management is always prepared and willing to discuss problems.

[DAVOUT]

Originally posted by Oncle Boris


Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I think it is GePap's point. (And mine too, for that matter).

With the notable exception (important from my point of view) that the social democracy does not require that a decision has to be made about products declared useless.

[Fake Boris]

Originally posted by DAVOUT


With the notable exception (important from my point of view) that the social democracy does not require that a decision has to be made about products declared useless.

I had assumed that the 'useless' goods would stop being produced because of the basic laws of 'offer and demand', as taxing the rich obviously results in less luxury goods being bought. I have never advocated anything like enacting laws forbidding some goods as being superfluous.

[DAVOUT]

Originally posted by Oncle Boris


I had assumed that the 'useless' goods would stop being produced because of the basic laws of 'offer and demand', as taxing the rich obviously results in less luxury goods being bought. I have never advocated anything like enacting laws forbidding some goods as being superfluous.

As most of Europe, France is quite advanced in the social democracy, and I would have a hard time to tell what kind of products the overtaxed (;p) riches cannot find here.

[Spiffor]

The rich are way undertaxed in France!

[Kuciwalker]

The law of "supply and demand" is the fundamental basis of the free market (well, maybe one of the)