The most tasteless and insensitive museum exhibit ever.

[Asher]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Key term, you allowed after occupation.

IIRC, when one surrenders unconditionally the victor is allowed to set conditions.

[Cyclotron]

Have any of you ever been to the atomic bomb museum in Hiroshima? I have, and it doesn't say a whole lot about the Enola Gay. I think it might have named the plane, but that's about it. There was certainly no mention of the technical specs of the plane or anything even remotely close to that.

I come up with two conclusions from that:

One, it is the bomb, not the plane, that matters,

And two, that just as technical specs do not belong in an atomic bomb memorial museum, memorials do not belong in an air and space museum.

[Asher]

Originally posted by cyclotron7
Have any of you ever been to the atomic bomb museum in Hiroshima? I have, and it doesn't say a whole lot about the Enola Gay. I think it might have named the plane, but that's about it. There was certainly no mention of the technical specs of the plane or anything even remotely close to that.

I come up with two conclusions from that:

One, it is the bomb, not the plane, that matters,

And two, that just as technical specs do not belong in an atomic bomb memorial museum, memorials do not belong in an air and space museum.

Well said.

The problem is, those of us unfortunate enough to be whimsical social science people don't understand why we have technical museums.

Much like I don't expect any computer museum hosting the ENIAC to go into a large political tirade about its use...but you just know some thick-black-wire-frame-glassic baret-wearing wingnut will protest and cry out "Oh the humanity, this is shameful!" just so somebody thinks he is useful.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Asher

IIRC, when one surrenders unconditionally the victor is allowed to set conditions.

Thanks, I think that was my point, except not conditions. They are allowed to do as they see fit. McCarther and the US administration did as they saw fit and allowed the Emperor to continue as a figure head.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Btw, there was an Egyptian mummy displayed in my university's museum. However, it said nothing about the Egyptian pharoah's enslaving the Jews to build the pyramids. How insensitive .

[Dinner]

The plane is a piece of history and it should be displayed. People can bicker about the specifics of the display but this isn't as big an issue as some whiners wish it was.

[Dis]

I like it- magnificent plane

[Ned]

Originally posted by cyclotron7


I'm not sure it was about justifying vengeance. I was under the impression the bombs were dropped in an effort to end the war quickly. Now, debate that how you will, it's certainly an open question of whether they were neccessary for that, but I don't think war works on an "eye for an eye" basis as you seem to suggest.

There are many here who justify and have justified the refusal to apologize because of Japan's own war crimes. I say, two wrongs do not make a right. But even if Japan's actions against us were war crimes, they certainly did not justify the scale of response we gave in return.

The bombs certainly were effective in ending the war. This does not mean they were necessary to end the war.

After being sickened by what he was doing, Truman finally accepted the Japanese offer of conditional surrender. He could have accepted it as early as June (IIRC), the date the offer was first made through the Russians.

[Imran Siddiqui]

There are many here who justify and have justified the refusal to apologize because of Japan's own war crimes.

And there are many who feel we have no need to apologize because it was a legitimate military weapon in a total war.

Truman finally accepted the Japanese offer of conditional surrender.

Can you not read, Ned? The Japanese UNCONDITIONALLY SURRENDERED!

[notyoueither]

Why do you keep saying conditional surrender, Ned?

[laurentius]

IMO The plane should be destroyed.

[Dis]

in no way should the plane be destroyed.

would you rather erase unpleasant historical fact? I think it is better to display them as a reminder to future generations. If we start erasing our history, we will begin to repeat it.

[Cyclotron]

Originally posted by Asher
The problem is, those of us unfortunate enough to be whimsical social science people don't understand why we have technical museums.

Much like I don't expect any computer museum hosting the ENIAC to go into a large political tirade about its use...but you just know some thick-black-wire-frame-glassic baret-wearing wingnut will protest and cry out "Oh the humanity, this is shameful!" just so somebody thinks he is useful.

Well, it's impossible to disconnect things entirely from their moral worth. Clearly, nobody who sees the Enola Gay is going to think "hmm, nice plane" and then keep walking without thinking about the atomic bomb, and quite possibly about the people who died.

The idea is that, while we have to accept you can't make everything perfectly value neutral in any circumstance, we should at least not try to import further moral judgement into a place that is not intended for that purpose. We can't see memorials everywhere we go; that's just dwelling on the past, and its unfair to people who come for the technology exhibited, not the moral judgements.

Ned:

There are many here who justify and have justified the refusal to apologize because of Japan's own war crimes. I say, two wrongs do not make a right. But even if Japan's actions against us were war crimes, they certainly did not justify the scale of response we gave in return.

You are missing the point that I am making. War does not work like this: I bomb you, so you bomb me in a fair manner relative to my action, then it proceeds *** for tat until somebody has enough.

No. When you are at war, the objective is not to exchange equal blows, but to utterly defeat the enemy, which requires that you use as unequal a blow as you can. Whatever you think about the morality of dropping the A-bombs, you cannot say that it was "unjustified," as we were in a state of total war.

Of course, people who refuse to apologize because of Japan's badness are making the same error as you, so I agree with you that they are off target too.

The bombs certainly were effective in ending the war. This does not mean they were necessary to end the war.

See, now you're getting it. I've said that in war everyone tries to use unequal force, but it's debatable whether the force was too unequal for the situation. "Could a lesser blow have worked" is a valid question, but also an overdone one, so I say we let it rest here.

[Cyclotron]

Originally posted by laurentius
IMO The plane should be destroyed.

Good idea. Then we can destroy the Nazi concentration camps, while we're at it, and forget that all of this **** ever happened.

[laurentius]

To honour the victims yes - they should both be destroyed and levelled