Turn Saddam over to the Kurds!

[Q Classic]

Again you are wrong there. Once someone takes the life of anther, in my view they gave up their right to live.
They must pay for what they have done. No other punishment for Saddam in my view would do his victoms justice, expect for his death.

our views are different. only problem is, you're in the wrong.

But Like I said I think that when you murder someone you have given up your right to live.

how many opposing soldiers will have to give up their right to live then? how many of ours?

[Jack_www]

Ramo, the reason capital punishment in the US does not work, is because it is rarely if ever used in cases of murder. Often the case is pleaded out, or the prosecutor only seeks the capital punishment for really bad crimes, or ones where their is a lot of media attention. Thus when someone murders a person they are not thinking they will be put to death, they are thinking the worst that can happen is that they end up in jail.

A murder is way different case then someone who has not murdered anther human.
First Like I said, I think that when you murder anther you give up your right to live.

Second when you put to death a murder instead of life in prison, their is a zero% chance they will hurt anther person. If you put them in prision there is always a chance they can murder again.

Thrid, it servers to deter people from commiting these crimes, if it was used more widely. Of course I can not offer direct proof of this, because no nations really does this expect for maybe China, but getting data from that kind of nation is hard at best. But as far as dictators, maybe the example of Saddam execution will make them think twice before they decide to comite gencide.

Forth, I view it as the murder paying for what he had no right to take in the first place. This is not meant to bring the person back, but to blance the scales of justice so to speak.

Q Cubed

If you noticed I was carefull not to use the word "kill" but to use the word "murder."
There are times when we can kill someone, for example in self denfense.

When I say murder I am talking about someone who wants to kill someone, say for money or because they hate them, not a person that has killed someone in self denfense

Well I think that you are wrong in your views as well. So I guess we think the same of each other, .

[Q Classic]

yeah, except i'm right.

[Ned]

The proof that the death penalty does deter crime lies an observation by Marco Polo that one could traverse the entire distance along the Silk Road without the fear of being robbed.

[Imran Siddiqui]

It doesn't. Look at the places with the harshest sentences, places like the US and Russia. They also happen to have some of the highest crime rates, particularly violent crime rates. OTOH, the places with more reasonable sentences, such as most of Western and Northern Europe, have some of the lowest crime rates.

Correlation does not indicate causation. You should know that Ramo. One can also use that information to say that the US and Russia both have greater ethnic diversity which causes societal problems. That and Russia is mostly lawless anyway .

[JimmyCracksCorn]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
Actually, why the sudden in favor of the death penalty?
Because we're talking about a particular individual?
Sounds cruel and unusual to me.
After all, he's just a poor, tired, old man.

I agree, and also, I doubt he will end up getting killed, he's too valuable a resource into the inner workings of these types of governments/organizations, and I'm sure he will be used as such (a source of info) for years to come.

[Ramo]

Correlation does not indicate causation.

Without a controlled study, coorelation is all we have.

Ramo, the reason capital punishment in the US does not work, is because it is rarely if ever used in cases of murder. Often the case is pleaded out, or the prosecutor only seeks the capital punishment for really bad crimes, or ones where their is a lot of media attention. Thus when someone murders a person they are not thinking they will be put to death, they are thinking the worst that can happen is that they end up in jail.

When someone murders another person, they're not thinking, "gee I'll do it because life in prison would be pretty sweet." They are either thinking they're not going to be caught, or more likely, they're not thinking the least bit about consequences. And when penalties are as high as life in prison, mild increases such as death are not the sort of things that will be deterrents. I challenge you to find a person that would murder someone if the penalty is life imprisonment, but not murder someone if the penalty is death.

A murder is way different case then someone who has not murdered anther human.
First Like I said, I think that when you murder anther you give up your right to live.

Why?

Second when you put to death a murder instead of life in prison, their is a zero% chance they will hurt anther person. If you put them in prision there is always a chance they can murder again.

When you put to death a person, there's a 100% someone will be killed. If you give him life in prison, there's an insignificant chance someone will be killed.

As for violence in prisons, that's another problem with our sadistic mentality that prisons are supposed to be state-sponsored revenge, thus no one gives a **** about trying to stop.

Thrid, it servers to deter people from commiting these crimes, if it was used more widely. Of course I can not offer direct proof of this,

Then why do you state it? Can you even offer indirect proof of this?

But as far as dictators, maybe the example of Saddam execution will make them think twice before they decide to comite gencide.

Dude, that's just insane. I don't know where to begin in pointing out how.

[Ned]

Hey Ramo, when the POTUS warned the leadership of Iraq's military in two military campaigns not to use WMD, and they do not use them despite orders to the contrary from Saddam, why do you think they did not use them?

[Ramo]

When did Saddam order the use of WMD's in either war?

[Mazarin]

Saddam is a ****er -and he deserves the highest penalty which is being in prison till his dead.
As in any capital punishment debate there is no argument for killing him that would convince me to break human rights. We shouln't give him this statisfaction.
deterrence? No dictator really will refrain from becoming one. vengeance? There is no equivalent vengence for what he has done: all we can do is officially comdemn him for his crimes.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Mazarin
Saddam is a ****er -and he deserves the highest penalty which is being in prison till his dead.

Isn't that up to the Iraqis?

[Mazarin]

Isn't that up to the Iraqis?

the thread is about our personal opinions on his punishment, it'd pe pointless otherwise.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Mazarin

the thread is about our personal opinions on his punishment, it'd pe pointless otherwise.

I'm sorry but putting conditions on what punishment the Iraqis can use in thier own trial completely undercuts the value of turning him over in the first place. On what objective basis would you do such a thing other than your own squishyness when it comes to handing out punishment?

[Mazarin]

DinoDoc,
There is one thing you can accuse pretty everybody participating in this thread: condemning Saddam before he's been officially proven guilty; so I'd like my above comments to be seen under this assumption.

I haven't captured Saddam, nor am I going to hand him over to any court. My personal opinion is highly unlikely
to influence the court that will be charged with this case.
If he was, however, I'd only hand him to a court that does not use capital punishment. If an Iraqi court insisted on this, I'd let the ICC take it over instead.

[Jack_www]

Originally posted by Ramo

When someone murders another person, they're not thinking, "gee I'll do it because life in prison would be pretty sweet." They are either thinking they're not going to be caught, or more likely, they're not thinking the least bit about consequences. And when penalties are as high as life in prison, mild increases such as death are not the sort of things that will be deterrents. I challenge you to find a person that would murder someone if the penalty is life imprisonment, but not murder someone if the penalty is death.

Like I said a lot of times when you kill someone in this country you dont get death sentence or even life in prison. That is the problem. Thus when people kill they think they will get away with it or get a few years in prison.

Also think of this, if someone is already in prison for life, and there is no capital punishment, they can kill guards, and other inmates as much as they want because they can't get any worst then what they already have.

If Capital punishment was used more widely, carried out in a short amount of time, instead of 20 years after the sentence is handed out, then we could see its real effects. It used to be like this in the US long ago, and crime was not as a problem as it is now, at least murder anyways.

When you put to death a person, there's a 100% someone will be killed. If you give him life in prison, there's an insignificant chance someone will be killed.

Why are you concern for the life of someone who shows that they dont respect life of others in any way? WHen you put shuch people to death, they can never murder anther human ever again. Most people convicted of violent crimes, such as rape or murder, often repeat there crimes after they get out of prison. If you put a murderer to death, they cant repeat the crime.

One reason crime is down in many states is because they have a three strikes law, thus repeat offenders, which commit the most crimes, end up in Prison for a long long time.

As for violence in prisons, that's another problem with our sadistic mentality that prisons are supposed to be state-sponsored revenge, thus no one gives a **** about trying to stop.

I think that this is wrong too. Some of the people that are in prison for example have not commited violent crimes, and thus I think dont deserve that. ALso prisons just breed more harden criminals once they are realesed. ALl they know is how to commit crimes and be in prison.

Maybe if the US had a more effect death penality our prisons would be filled with so many violent prisoners because they would be dead and could not hurt anyone ever again, they Prison Guards or the inmates.

Also if used correctly we could greatly reduce coast of keeping murders in prison for life as well.

Then why do you state it? Can you even offer indirect proof of this?

Because China says that this has greatly reduced crime in their nation. They even put to death drug dealers. I do tend to believe them when they say it, but I dont think you would accept it as evidence, thus I did not brother.

Dude, that's just insane. I don't know where to begin in pointing out how.

If more dictators ended up like Saddam, I do think it would make a very big impact on other dictators.
Look at what happened to Lybia just now on the news. And when he is sentenced to death, I think this only help the US in its dealings with other Dictators trying to get WMDs and have ties with terrorist.