NO, it's not government connections at all!

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by skywalker




That statement proves your vast ignorance. The two are mutually exclusive.

Show me a definition of capitalism that excludes corporate welfare. And not Berzerker's either.

[Berzerker]

Capitalism - An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development is proportionate to the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market.

See "free market", Kid? Corporate welfare is not the free market. It's fascistic, or as we see with some of the European "social democracies", socialistic.

Ramo - I'm debating you and when poly communists deny that Stalinism represents communism, you've agreed (don't ask me to track down a quote because I can't/won't). Now, you didn't answer my question about public schools, are they capitalistic?

chegitz -

Berserker, it's like this. Before communism ever took power, we had an idea of what it was supposed to be like, how it was supposed to run, etc.

"We"?

Stalin comes along, and it looks nothing like it. One can then reasonably say, "Not the same thing."

Fine, then corporate welfare is not capitalism at work.

Capitalism has been around for hundreds of years. It changes, it grows, it evolves. Then libertarians come along and say, "no, real capitalism is supposed to be something I just made up." While the arguments appear similar in form, in essence they are different.

Libertarians came along and invented the concept of a free market? I'd suggest that concept goes back to the first people who freely exchanged goods. Now, does the free market have a definition? Does that definition allow for the state to step in and distort the playing field by taking money from one group of producers and handing it to another?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Berzerker
Capitalism - An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development is proportionate to the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market.

See "free market", Kid? Corporate welfare is not the free market. It's fascistic, or as we see with some of the European "social democracies", socialistic.

He said coporate welfare and capitalism are mutually exclusive, and I challenged him to show me a definition that excludes corporate welfare. Nothing in your definition excludes corporate welfare since it doesn't say that all of the markets must be free.

edit: and the existence of any government is not free market as you are trying to define capitalism. All govt spending and taxation is market manipulation.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by MrFun


Well duh -- they would not accidentally buy the best toilet seats they can possibly find, now would they?

That's not the issue...DD was (I think) assuming $500 toilet seats were the result of unnoticed gouging on the part of suppliers to the military. While this happens a lot, it's also due to outright cronyism and corruption in the system. When Senator Smith's home state defense contractor is supplying toilet seats, somebody's going to make sure the military pays $500 per seat.

[Berzerker]

Kid -

He said coporate welfare and capitalism are mutually exclusive, and I challenged him to show me a definition that excludes corporate welfare. Nothing in your definition excludes corporate welfare since it doesn't say that all of the markets must be free.

Here is the definition again:

Capitalism - An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development is proportionate to the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market.

Take note of the words in bold. Once the market is not free, it is no longer capitalism.

edit: and the existence of any government is not free market as you are trying to define capitalism. All govt spending and taxation is market manipulation.

No, only when the state subsides certain businesses. A free market requires among other things, a level playing field, i.e., no playing favorites. Corporate welfare is exactly that, playing favorites... You asked for a definition of Capitalism and you got it.

[Berzerker]

I heard $500 toilet seats were a way for Congress to fund black ops/CIA whose funding is meant to be kept off the radar screen. Or maybe I heard that in a X-Files episode.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


That's not the issue...DD was (I think) assuming $500 toilet seats were the result of unnoticed gouging on the part of suppliers to the military. While this happens a lot, it's also due to outright cronyism and corruption in the system. When Senator Smith's home state defense contractor is supplying toilet seats, somebody's going to make sure the military pays $500 per seat.

I see

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Kidicious
Show me a definition of capitalism that excludes corporate welfare. And not Berzerker's either.

Capitalism: and economic system characterized by government nonintervention and full economic freedom.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Berzerker
No, only when the state subsides certain businesses. A free market requires among other things, a level playing field, i.e., no playing favorites. Corporate welfare is exactly that, playing favorites... You asked for a definition of Capitalism and you got it.

Oh, only when the state subsidizes certain businesses.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by skywalker


Capitalism: and economic system characterized by government nonintervention and full economic freedom.

Where did you get that def? A govt that doesn't intervene is no govt at all.

[Boris Godunov]

Just go to the frickin' dictionary, people:

cap·i·tal·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kp-tl-zm)
n.
An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development is proportionate to the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market.

[Kuciwalker]

Where did you get that def? A govt that doesn't intervene is no govt at all.

Sorry, government nonentervention in the market.

I thought that would be obvious in the context of an economic system

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Kidicious
Oh, only when the state subsidizes certain businesses.

Where did you get that idea? That is exactly what he just said is NOT capitalism.

Don't you think it's telling that even chegitz doesn't defend you?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by skywalker


Where did you get that idea? That is exactly what he just said is NOT capitalism.

From Berez. It's sarcasim.

Originally posted by skywalker
Don't you think it's telling that even chegitz doesn't defend you?

[Kuciwalker]

*sigh*