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Gotta Love That 9th Circuit!

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  • Gotta Love That 9th Circuit!

    They basically gutted the 1996 Anti-terrorism Act. Woohoo!



    The Bush administration's interpretation of sections of the 1996 federal anti-terrorism law violates the Constitution, the U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled Wednesday.

    The 2-1 decision affects portions of the Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996 that have been a major tool in the efforts by U.S. Atty. Gen. John Ashcroft to combat terrorism. The Justice Department had no comment on the ruling but is expected to appeal.

    The central problem, appeals court judges Harry Pregerson and Sidney Thomas wrote, is that federal prosecutors have interpreted the law to allow a person to be charged with giving aid to a terrorist group even if there is no evidence that the defendant knew about the group's actions or even that the government had labeled it a terrorist organization.

    In addition, the judges said, the provisions of the law barring "material support" to terrorist organizations are too vague and risk imposing liability on "moral innocents."

    To convict a defendant, "the government must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the accused knew that the organization was designated as a foreign terrorist organization or that the accused knew of the organization's unlawful activities," Pregerson wrote.

    The case involved individuals and groups who supported two organizations that the U.S. government considers terrorist — the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK), which opposes the Turkish government, and the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE), which opposes the Sri Lankan government.

    Both organizations were designated as terrorist groups by Secretary of State Madeleine Albright in 1997. However, both groups also engage in other advocacy work on behalf of ethnic Kurds and Tamils. The U.S. supporters of the two groups who challenged the law argued that the assistance they provided was for humanitarian purposes.

    The 1996 law states that people may be prosecuted if they "knowingly" provide material support to a terrorist group. When the law was being considered in the Senate, Pregerson noted, Sen. Orrin Hatch (R-Utah), chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, emphasized that "intent requirement."

    "I am convinced that we have crafted a narrow but effective designation provision … while safeguarding the freedom to associate, which none of us would willingly give up," Hatch said.

    The Justice Department, however, has interpreted the "knowingly" language in the law to mean a person can be prosecuted so long as he knows the identity of the group to which he has given money. The person need not know about the group's designation as terrorist or about its violent activities, the government says.

    Under that interpretation, Pregerson said, "a person who simply sends a check to a school or orphanage" run by the Tamil Tigers could be convicted "even if that individual is not aware of … any unlawful activities" by the group.

    "Or, according to the government's interpretation" of the statute, Pregerson said, "a woman who buys cookies from a bake sale outside of her grocery store to support displaced Kurdish refugees to find new homes could be held liable so long as the bake sale had a sign that the sale was sponsored by the PKK."

    The dissenting member of the appeals court panel, Judge Johnnie B. Rawlinson, said that the ruling would allow U.S. supporters of groups designated as terrorist to escape prosecution by pleading ignorance.

    "No one disputes that the PKK and the LTTE are terrorist organizations," Rawlinson wrote. "The record in this case reflects that the PKK's terrorist activities have resulted in the death of over 22,000 individuals, primarily bombings," she said, adding that the Tamil Tigers have "a similar history, engaging in bombings, gun battles, assassinations and machete attacks, causing widespread death and destruction."

    "Simply stated," Rawlinson concluded, "the plaintiffs sought and secured a ruling that so long as they profess an intent to further only the legitimate goals of the terrorist organizations, their material support of these organizations should escape scrutiny or consequence."

    The court majority also said the law's prohibition against providing "personnel" or "training" to a terrorist group is unconstitutionally vague. Pregerson emphasized that those terms could include constitutionally protected 1st Amendment activity, such as training someone to petition the United Nations or writing literature on the grievances of the Tamils in Sri Lanka.

    Wednesday's decision means that the law "cast an unconstitutionally broad net over innocent persons," said Washington attorney David Cole of the Center for Constitutional Rights.

    "This decision will mitigate the substantial chilling effect that this statute has cast over those who seek to provide humanitarian aid to conflict-ridden areas," said Cole, a constitutional law professor at Georgetown Law School. The plaintiffs said that they had ceased providing aid to the PKK or the LTTE because they feared prosecution under the law.

    The ruling upheld a decision made two years ago by U.S. District Judge Audrey Collins in Los Angeles. The appeals court ruling immediately affects cases in California and eight other Western states. But if it stands it could affect a number of other cases. The law was used, for example, to prosecute Mukhtar al-Bakri, a Yemeni American man who was sentenced to 10 years in prison by a federal judge in Buffalo, N.Y., on Wednesday for providing "material support" to Al Qaeda by providing "personnel."

    Had the court's ruling been in effect in New York, it probably would have prevented that prosecution, Cole said.

    Cole has filed a related case, now pending before a federal trial judge in Los Angeles, challenging similar provisions in the USA Patriot Act. That case is scheduled to be heard later this month.
    "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
    -Bokonon

  • #2
    Bill O'Reilly should have a hissy fit over this, he's constantly lambasting the 9th circuit.

    Comment


    • #3
      This will probably be overturned, like most of the loony 9th Circuit's decisions. Woohoo!
      KH FOR OWNER!
      ASHER FOR CEO!!
      GUYNEMER FOR OT MOD!!!

      Comment


      • #4
        The 9th Circus Court is often overturned by the Supreme Circus so I would wait a while before you all start the party.

        Anyway, after the next major terrorist attack in this country we will be under level "red" so we can kiss whatever is left of our civil rights away regardless.

        Comment


        • #5
          Wierd decision given the facts of the case. Under thier ruling, the people involved would have been convicted anyway.

          Edit: Can someone explain this quote: "This decision will mitigate the substantial chilling effect that this statute has cast over those who seek to provide humanitarian aid to conflict-ridden areas,"? Are terrorist groups the only ones providing humanitarian aid to conflict ridden areas?
          Last edited by DinoDoc; December 7, 2003, 14:28.
          I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
          For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

          Comment


          • #6
            To convict a defendant, "the government must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the accused knew that the organization was designated as a foreign terrorist organization or that the accused knew of the organization's unlawful activities," Pregerson wrote.
            Sounds like a standard mens rea requirement - you have to know that the organization is involved in terrorism in order for the government to make the inference that you are rendering material support. Nothing new here.

            To convict a defendant, "the government must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the accused knew that the organization was designated as a foreign terrorist organization or that the accused knew of the organization's unlawful activities," Pregerson wrote.
            Again, the court is reading the (constructive) knowledge standard for mens rea into a vital element of the crime - that the organiztion is in fact terrorist.

            Sorry guys, but only the lunatic 4th Circuit (the one that a year or two ago struck down miranda only to be reversed by the supreme court ) could disagree with this interpretation of the statute.
            - "A picture may be worth a thousand words, but it still ain't a part number." - Ron Reynolds
            - I went to Zanarkand, and all I got was this lousy aeon!
            - "... over 10 members raised complaints about you... and jerk was one of the nicer things they called you" - Ming

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by The Templar
              Sounds like a standard mens rea requirement - you have to know that the organization is involved in terrorism in order for the government to make the inference that you are rendering material support
              Exactly. That's why the decision was wierd given the facts of the case. Anyone interested enough in the plight of the Kurds or the Tamils would know the nature of the PKK and the LTTE unless they were supremely stupid or willfuly ignorant.
              I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
              For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

              Comment


              • #8
                You really think everyone who donates to what they consider humanitarian charities know everything about the groups they donate to?
                "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
                -Bokonon

                Comment


                • #9
                  yaaaaaaaay, our stupid judges did it again, all 3 of 'em. You'd think it would take more than 3 idiots to decalre something like that.
                  Monkey!!!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    This will probably be overturned, like most of the loony 9th Circuit's decisions. Woohoo!
                    Yeah, how dare they oppose the decline of the US into a police state.
                    "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
                    -Bokonon

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Ramo
                      You really think everyone who donates to what they consider humanitarian charities know everything about the groups they donate to?
                      Do you think anyone that works with a group often enough to get the attention of the government doesn't know the nature of the group they are working with?
                      I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
                      For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Who are you referring to?
                        "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
                        -Bokonon

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I would support a change in the law to allow strict liability with a smaller penalty for contributing to or supporting a terrorist organization and a larger penalty if the government proves knowledge of the terror activities.
                          http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Why should there be any liability without knowledge of what the groups are doing?
                            "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
                            -Bokonon

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Ramo
                              Who are you referring to?
                              Now you are just being facetious. I'm refering to the same people you were in the post I quoted of yours.
                              I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
                              For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

                              Comment

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