Rugby - The Lull After The Storm

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by finbar

That's the bottom line. As Havak pointed out, England is littered with ex-AB coaches. Continuity is crucial in the development of anything.

Though I agree there is a time a team must change (this sentence is not targetted at Mitchell). If we consider the Stade Toulousain, the long and regular work produced by Guy Noves allowed the Stade Toulousain to become the first European Champion and to earn four French Championship titles in a row, over ten years the club won something like six French Championships and two European cups. In 1996 (year of the first European title coupled with a French Championship title I had the chance to see live at the Parc des Princes), the Stade Toulousain was clearly ahead of its French counterparts with a sparkling game played by a very talented generation of players like Thomas Castaignède, Christophe Deylau the magician, Jérôme Cazalbou, Emile Ntamack, Hugues Miorin, Dispagne, Franck Belot, Didier Lacroix, the Carbonneau brothers, David Berty and later Fabien Pelous and Xavier Garbajosa...

But what has happened to the Stade Toulousain? The club was so ahead of the others that he kept its momentum for a few years but the game played got poorer and poorer. The individualities are still well coached and allow the Stade to make the difference most of the time (not sunday obviously), but there is no more a game "à la Toulousaine" as it was the case a few years ago. The Stade Toulousain is today a team among the others... and that hurts. The problem will be difficult to solve because I can't see a long term game project and because the Noves family has locked the club to secure its position. Today I only see a group of players deep into a routine, no more sparks...

Too much stability can rhyme with sclerosis.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by finbar
Haven't seen it. It's playing fairly regularly on one of the cable movie channels. I recall that it didn't get terribly good reviews when it was released here a year or so ago. I'll check it out next time it's on.

This is not a great movie but it is interesting to watch nonetheless, the way the movie has been shot and edited is already entertaining, good performance from Terence Stamp.

Did you get my last email? If you want that GFR article, email me your address and I'll send it to you. In fact, there are several very good articles on the Detroit music scene of the '60s and '70s, including a detailed article on Holland/Dozier/Holland at Tamla Motown. If they're of interest, I'll send the whole magazine.

Yes I received your e-mail and I even replied the 6th... I will send you another mail in a few minutes. I have seen the Holland/Dozier/Holland names on records a countless number of times but I can't link them to a specific band tonight.

The whole magazine sounds interesting actually...

[finbar]

Originally posted by Tamerlin
But what has happened to the Stade Toulousain? The club was so ahead of the others that he kept his momentum for a few years but the game played get poorer and poorer. The individualities are still well coached and allow the Stade to make the difference most of te time (not sunday obviously), but there is no more a game "à la Toulousaine" as it was the case a few years ago. The Stade Toulousain is today a team among the others... and that hurts. The problem will be difficult to solve because I can't see a long term game project and because the Noves family has locked the club to secure his position. Today I only see a group of players deep into a routine, no more sparks...

Sounds a bit like Havak's problem, only his team are a year or so further down the road. I believe there are particular combinations of personalities, talent and - for want of a better term, je ne sais quoi - that can magically blend to produce something extraordinary. But it never lasts forever. It can't. Time catches up with everything. The real test is being able to pick the time to begin to adjust.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Tamerlin


This is not a great movie but it is interesting to watch nonetheless, the way the movie has been shot and edited is already entertaining, good performance from Terence Stamp.

I'm a big fan of Soderbergh. The most eclectic director working at the moment. Interestingly, my least favourite film of his was his first one, the one that brought him to everyone's attention.

Yes I received your e-mail and I even replied the 6th... I will send you another mail in a few minutes.

Mmmm. I didn't receive your reply. I wonder where the problem lies. Bigpond, my ISP, has had all sorts of problems with its email service over the last month or so. At one point, Bigpond users weren't receiving any email for a week or more. Suddenly, most of them would turn up in a flood, but, often, many would just have disappeared. It got so bad that Bigpond gave all its subscribers a 25% discount on their fees. My email has been better behaved recently, though. I'll check for your latest attempt.

I have seen the Holland/Dozier/Holland names on records a countless number of times but I can't link them to a specific band tonight.

They wrote and produced 90% of all the songs that were released by the Tamla Motown label in the '60s - The Supremes, The Four Tops, Marvin Gaye's early material, Martha & The Vandellas, et al.

The whole magazine sounds interesting actually...

There's also a great interview with Iggy Pop, covering his early days with the Stooges and beyond, and a very interesting article written by one of the MC5 originals. MOJO, IMHO, is the best of the British music magazines. They cover as much musical history as they cover modern music. The latter, of course, being of no interest to me! If your email ever arrives, I'll send you the whole magazine.

Edit. It arrived. Success!

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by finbar
The latter, of course, being of no interest to me!

This is not my case...

If your email ever arrives, I'll send you the whole magazine.

I suppose you have not received the mail in which I made a proposal related to le petit ophrys. Perhaps the problem is for the provider to send it to Australia, you could order it elsewhere and give my snail mail address as the delivery address, I could then send it to you through the post office. If you can't order it I can also find it for you in Toulouse.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Tamerlin




This is not my case...

Yes, but you're a young man, susceptible to those things that plague young men - like misjudgement!

I suppose you have not received the mail in which I made a proposal related to le petit ophrys. Perhaps the problem is for the provider to send it to Australia, you could order it elsewhere and give my snail mail address as the delivery address, I could then send it to you through the post office. If you can't order it I can also find it for you in Toulouse.

No, I didn't get anything from you about the dreaded petit ophrys. I wouldn't have thought it was a problem for French Amazon to send it here. The price included postage. I've bought a couple of books via American Amazon without a problem.

Of course, it might be that French Amazon are sitting around their bureau wondering what the hell an Australian wants with a petit ophrys. Well, little do they know that I have a recalcitrant grenouille to contend with!

As a first step, I might email them to ask what's going on. I won't attempt my fractured French. I'm sure someone there will be able to cope with my fractured English. Subject to what I hear back - how easily could you obtain a copy at a librairie? If you let me know the price and postage, I'd send you a bank cheque or money order or whatever is used to send money these days.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by finbar

Yes, but you're a young man, susceptible to those things that plague young men - like misjudgement!

I think I am not totally lost to the cause, Jazz is of no interest to me after the 60s.

No, I didn't get anything from you about the dreaded petit ophrys. I wouldn't have thought it was a problem for French Amazon to send it here. The price included postage. I've bought a couple of books via American Amazon without a problem.

I don't know at all if it is a problem... but it could be.

Of course, it might be that French Amazon are sitting around their bureau wondering what the hell an Australian wants with a petit ophrys. Well, little do they know that I have a recalcitrant grenouille to contend with!

As a first step, I might email them to ask what's going on. I won't attempt my fractured French. I'm sure someone there will be able to cope with my fractured English. Subject to what I hear back - how easily could you obtain a copy at a librairie? If you let me know the price and postage, I'd send you a bank cheque or money order or whatever is used to send money these days.

You can send me the mail you would like to send to Amazon so that I can translate it. If it doesn't work, finding it in Toulouse is only a matter of time, I already know where I can order it.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Tamerlin
I think I am not totally lost to the cause, Jazz is of no interest to me after the 60s.

Jazz always struck me as music favoured by musicians with crappy memories - they couldn't remember what came next, so they made up something.

I don't know at all if it is a problem... but it could be.

No, I think they're just struggling to get their heads around an Australian ordering it. They probably think I meant to order that very thick book "Great Wallaby Victories Over Les Grenouilles" and hit the wrong button by mistake.

You can send me the mail you would like to send to Amazon so that I can translate it. If it doesn't work, finding it in Toulouse is only a matter of time, I already know where I can order it.

You translating the email into French would be a great idea! And, because they thought I was fluent in French, they'd reply in French, and I'd have to send you their reply to translate for me! Ah, the wonders of modern communication. Silly old Alexander Graham Bell thought he was the bee's knees inventing the telephone.

[Havak]

I noticed.

Um guys – the way the tournament panned out did finally give some weight to our views about your forwards you know.

My English Gran went through several corgies...most of them died of heart attacks while going for a walk.

An awful lot of pedigree mutts suffer with such heart problems. I had a little mongrel with substantial Cavlier blood who did. He hated other dogs and in his old age would go mad as they passed the gate, pass out from the exertion, get up and see them – and fly at the gate and pass out again. He wasn’t very bright. He could have been a hooker.

Our pack is young and promising - McCaw, Jack, Mealamu, Colins, and there are other players emerging.

Ah the joust continues. McCaw – yes an excellent player. But when he is the only one competing for the ball in open play it cripples you. Jack –yes a super prospect but he proved in the tournament he really needs more experience – and he certainly needs a comparable partner. Mealamu – fantastic in the loose for sure. Can’t scrummage particularly well. Bit of a drawback for a hooker don’t you think? Collins was slated after the Wallaby game as a one dimensional banger by the Kiwi press wasn’t he?

What do you think of your Props? They seem to lack both power and pace – being neither particularly effective in the scrum or mobile enough in the loose. Williams and the big rugby league convert – where we they when the going got tough? This is only compared to contemporary teams incidentally - before anyone thinks I’m saying they are ‘crap’ per se. No one pulling on the black shirt is a poor player – but they have a lot to live up to from the past, and the opposition these days has improved considerably too.

And your skipper – I’m not entirely sure he commands his position on merit to be honest?

Oh and the crucial question – Carlos. When the going got tough in the semi – so did Carlos. Where was he half the time – I believe you guys in the SH like to talk about stand offs as being ‘first receivers’ – a lot of the time Carlos was absent from that channel. Ultimately that squandered a lot of the possession you did get?

It must be very concerning when our team becomes the least popular side in the tournament.

Wha? England and Australia, particularly the former, were the most demonised teams in the tourney. Everyone loves the ABs, even if they had problem with their coach and his lack of media skills. And Finbar says the French were huge hits too.

Henry does have a good track record of delivering with strong pools of talent, and when the team is sympathetic with his aims. His weakness in 2001 was primarily that his players didn't like him

Excellent qualifier. The weakness in fact was that he has no man management skills at all – possibly even a negative net rating. If the ABs are determined to go that way he must have an assistant who the players can empathise with – if that does not happen the ABs could enter their worst ever ‘dark age’.

Give Conquests a go –

If I may cut in on the side of this I’ve been giving Conquests a burl myself. It makes for a vastly improved experience from the initial disaster that was Civ 3 but it still lacks that Je Ne Sais Quoi that Reynolds brings to games. Combat as they chose to implement it simply sucks, and an AI that has really tiny Civs behaving in diplomacy as if they were Stalin himself just rankles most of the time. Tamerlin seems to have a point about the strat resources too. Nice try Firaxis – but no cigar. And some idiot is letting them make Civ 4?

True, Napoléon was a conqueror but many of his campaigns were fought because the Coalisés, led and/or financed by England, forced him to do so.

My god – a spin doctor of Campbell like proportions.

Can I remind Tamerlin that England moved openly against Napoleon only after their ally Spain had been attacked and conquered and the Kingship of that country given to the brother of the great ‘socialist crusader’ Napoleon. He called himself Emporer after all – rather unusual for a man with Socialist aspirations. Pax Romana indeed – with Napoleon as Caesar.

What possessions did we threaten to prompt the invasion of Russia by the way?

Heh Tamerlin – wasn’t Toulouse the last city assaulted by the Peninsula army before the first fall of the Emporer?

Nuh. The celebration wouldn't have been anywhere near as hysterical or pompous

Aussies don’t celebrate. They just gloat. Forever.

They can make something out of absolutely nothing.

It worked twice – watch the Aussie defenders for his try who were clearly waiting for the cut back inside.

Something out of nothing. Iain Balshaw, Dan Luger and your favourite try ever?

Baxter is local. English qualifying through and through. You might imagine from seeing him that he has Islander blood however. Big, fast, strong and coloured.

I would say I found your spelling, lip moving and corgi comments funny but I fear we might risk inflating your ego now your stardom is spreading on the forum.

Not if he hugged me and tried to stick his tongue down my throat like he did with George Gregan after the final whistle!

thank god I was too drunk to notice that!

I heard this morning that Geoff Hurst - s***** World Cup hero - turned 62. Speaks volumes.

They will never win that trophy again. What does a 22 year old muppet who can kick a ball a bit care about winning this when he can sit on his arse all week and still take home £60K for that seven days of lounging about. Soccer has lost it big time here – it will take some big clubs going under for the reality to hit home. No business can stand having almost 100% of it’s turnover (in a lot of cases more!) disappearing in staff wages.

Kudos for explaining to Tamerlin that the only important sport with XI players is actually cricket.

Graham Henry was out-thought and out-coached by Rod Macqueen in the Lions series.

Macqueen who makes Woodward look a diplomat. “Damn good to be an Australian”. I’d still like to punch him on the snout the ungracious so and so. But he did out think Henry – not that I believe that is very hard to be honest.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
An awful lot of pedigree mutts suffer with such heart problems.

Yes, I've been counting on that to rid me of Mrs finbar's little white yapping rat. I burst paper bags behind her, fire shotguns behind her when she's least expecting it - which, logically, is most of the time. No luck thus far. The RatSak is beckoning.

I had a little mongrel with substantial Cavlier blood who did. He hated other dogs and in his old age would go mad as they passed the gate, pass out from the exertion, get up and see them – and fly at the gate and pass out again. He wasn’t very bright. He could have been a hooker.

He was reincarnated as Mrs finbar's little white yapping rat.

Ah the joust continues.

I can only suggest to Caligastia and AndyDog that they both publicly ponder Leicester's fortunes at the moment. Endlessly.

And Finbar says the French were huge hits too.

Especially with the girls of Bondi Beach!

Excellent qualifier. The weakness in fact was that he has no man management skills at all – possibly even a negative net rating. If the ABs are determined to go that way he must have an assistant who the players can empathise with – if that does not happen the ABs could enter their worst ever ‘dark age’.

I heard today that the NZ Union is advertising for a Team Manager to work alongside the coach. They have been reading your mind.

Heh Tamerlin – wasn’t Toulouse the last city assaulted by the Peninsula army before the first fall of the Emporer?

Gee, talk about history repeating itself. It was also the last French city visited by Mrs finbar on her French canal barge holiday in 1997. She got off in Toulouse and flew to Cannes for the TV marketing festival there.

Aussies don’t celebrate. They just gloat. Forever.

Yes, and much more civilised than a pagan festival built around a double-decker bus.

It worked twice – watch the Aussie defenders for his try who were clearly waiting for the cut back inside.

That was just a change of angle. Every player and his dog does that.

Something out of nothing. Iain Balshaw, Dan Luger and your favourite try ever?

But they do it regularly. Oh, and their tries are legitimate too.

Baxter is local. English qualifying through and through. You might imagine from seeing him that he has Islander blood however. Big, fast, strong and coloured.

Whisked away from North Auckland as a foetus, no doubt.

I would say I found your spelling, lip moving and corgi comments funny but I fear we might risk inflating your ego now your stardom is spreading on the forum.

My head couldn't get any smaller than it is.

thank god I was too drunk to notice that!

You didn't see the embrace? Good grief. Watch a replay again.

They will never win that trophy again. What does a 22 year old muppet who can kick a ball a bit care about winning this when he can sit on his arse all week and still take home £60K for that seven days of lounging about. Soccer has lost it big time here – it will take some big clubs going under for the reality to hit home. No business can stand having almost 100% of it’s turnover (in a lot of cases more!) disappearing in staff wages.

Ridiculous. Look at Chelsea. I'm waiting for the fiscal bubble to burst.

Kudos for explaining to Tamerlin that the only important sport with XI players is actually cricket.

It meant nothing to him. Hasn't he heard of French Cricket?

Macqueen who makes Woodward look a diplomat. “Damn good to be an Australian”. I’d still like to punch him on the snout the ungracious so and so.

I told you. He's a Tory. And that hasn't stopped Clive from borrowing much from his approach to rugby.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by Havak

Ah the joust continues. McCaw – yes an excellent player. But when he is the only one competing for the ball in open play it cripples you. Jack –yes a super prospect but he proved in the tournament he really needs more experience – and he certainly needs a comparable partner. Mealamu – fantastic in the loose for sure. Can’t scrummage particularly well. Bit of a drawback for a hooker don’t you think? Collins was slated after the Wallaby game as a one dimensional banger by the Kiwi press wasn’t he?

Everybody knows what I am thinking about the SH forwards and especially of the AB ones...

Everyone loves the ABs...

No, not everyone...

And Finbar says the French were huge hits too.

If I may cut in on the side of this I’ve been giving Conquests a burl myself. It makes for a vastly improved experience from the initial disaster that was Civ 3 but it still lacks that Je Ne Sais Quoi that Reynolds brings to games. Combat as they chose to implement it simply sucks, and an AI that has really tiny Civs behaving in diplomacy as if they were Stalin himself just rankles most of the time. Tamerlin seems to have a point about the strat resources too. Nice try Firaxis – but no cigar. And some idiot is letting them make Civ 4?

I am expecting to be disappointed, once again.

My god – a spin doctor of Campbell like proportions.

Naaaah, I don't forget he waged war on the whole cotinent and that many of his campaigns were also started without any external pressure.

Can I remind Tamerlin that England moved openly against Napoleon only after their ally Spain had been attacked and conquered and the Kingship of that country given to the brother of the great ‘socialist crusader’ Napoleon. He called himself Emporer after all – rather unusual for a man with Socialist aspirations.

The answer to your question lies in a word you have used yourself: "openly".

Since 1789, England helped the réfugiés and all the Europeans nations fighting against the young French Republic. IMO, the origins of the Napoleonic wars come from these early wars against the French state.

Pax Romana indeed – with Napoleon as Caesar.

Of course, if you conquer Europe this is certainly not with the goal to give the power to someone else. If you look at some paintings of Napoléon you will see that he is sometimes wearing the laurel crown (but many kings did)...

What possessions did we threaten to prompt the invasion of Russia by the way?

Russia was the last standing ennemy of France on the continent at this time, in itself this is enough to justify an attack though IMO it was a mistake as Russia would have certainly signed a long term peace.

Heh Tamerlin – wasn’t Toulouse the last city assaulted by the Peninsula army before the first fall of the Emperor?

I don't think the city itself was assaulted (I might be wrong though) but I know that a battle took place near Toulouse, almost under its walls.

Aussies don’t celebrate. They just gloat. Forever.

Kudos for explaining to Tamerlin that the only important sport with XI players is actually cricket.

I know nothing about Cricket, it seems that one needs to fall into hit when he is young if he wants to understand at all this game. This is hardly possible in France... but I agree with you it can only be better than S*****.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Tamerlin


Everybody knows what I am thinking about the SH forwards and especially of the AB ones...

Truly? I must have missed your thoughts. Could you bring me up to speed, please?

Naaaah, I don't forget he waged war on the whole cotinent and that many of his campaigns were also started without any external pressure.

Ah! Now the truth comes out!

Russia was the last standing ennemy of France on the continent at this time, in itself this is enough to justify an attack

Ah! George Bush smokes Gauloise!

I know nothing about Cricket,

Then it's time a civilised person such as yourself learned. It's the only game in the world that can be played over five days, with no result, yet be utterly enthralling. As opposed to something like, say, basketball, which can be played over about 40 minutes of non-stop action and remain constantly utterly tediously unenthralling. Or even something like baseball, which seems to consist of about 17 minutes of action over a 9 hour period with the same effect. And don't get me started on gridiron, which seems to consist of 8 minutes of action over an 11 hour period with the obvious effect.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Havak
An awful lot of pedigree mutts suffer with such heart problems. I had a little mongrel with substantial Cavlier blood who did. He hated other dogs and in his old age would go mad as they passed the gate, pass out from the exertion, get up and see them – and fly at the gate and pass out again. He wasn’t very bright. He could have been a hooker.

Yes, well my Gran's corgies weren't helped by the fact that she would excessively overfeed them. My uncle used to describe them as a barrel with legs.

[Havak]

He was reincarnated as Mrs finbar's little white yapping rat.

For your sake I hope not. The old mutt was quite nuts.

I can only suggest to Caligastia and AndyDog that they both publicly ponder Leicester's fortunes at the moment. Endlessly.

I look forward to their critique of our squad.

I heard today that the NZ Union is advertising for a Team Manager to work alongside the coach. They have been reading your mind.

It seems the NZRFU is concerned at how much off field power Mitchell invested in himself by dismissing the previous fellow who held this post? It sounds a useful balancing measure.

It was also the last French city visited by Mrs finbar on her French canal barge holiday in 1997. She got off in Toulouse and flew to Cannes for the TV marketing festival there.

The coincidences continue! The Iron Duke got off there, demobilised and headed homeward after forcing Marshal Soualts withdrawal.

Yes, and much more civilised than a pagan festival built around a double-decker bus.

We’ve missed our winter solstice since them damn Romans overstayed their VISAs.

That was just a change of angle. Every player and his dog does that.

Jason excels at it however.

But they do it regularly. Oh, and their tries are legitimate too.

Nope. Their grounding is legitimate. Important distinction. Go watch Howlett’s try against Wales again – and every try he has ever scored against England.

Whisked away from North Auckland as a foetus, no doubt.

I shall dig about a bit. I do know he came to us after a dalliance with Salford RL so he may be of Aussie extraction instead.

You didn't see the embrace? Good grief. Watch a replay again.

I shall have to now.

Ridiculous. Look at Chelsea. I'm waiting for the fiscal bubble to burst.

Chelsea. Such a shame the Russian baled them out. They typified where the game had gone wrong. Hardly any English talent in the entire squad, hugely in debt, tickets that cost more than a small family saloon car, and only the ground as a tangible asset. The wage bill was beyond annual turnover and the slope to going bust being slowly being slid down. Amazing what a Russian ‘businessman’ and a few hundred million pounds can do isn’t it?

Still if they win the league it makes even more of a mockery of soccer – another nail in the coffin so to speak.

It meant nothing to him. Hasn't he heard of French Cricket?

Care to explain it to him – and his shins?

I am expecting to be disappointed, once again.

It seems to have a very loyal following on these boards. Beats me as to why.

The answer to your question lies in a word you have used yourself: "openly".

I must remember not to underestimate your command of English. You picked that out nicely.

You are right of course. The French Revolution terrified the British establishment. They bent their entire will to two ends – to prevent revolutionary ferver crossing the channel (though réfugiés were of course welcomed in large numbers) and to then thwarting French aims throughout Europe. What a shame they succeeded in the former.

You have to get inside their heads. A successful revolution that ended a well established class system in a riot of Blood. To the British Upper classes it must have seemed as if the devil himself had descended upon France.

This policy of opposition was initially to fund anti-French activity without risking direct armed conflict, but escalated into open warfare first at sea and then finally on land as it seemed as if the Emporer might achieve domination of the continent.

However we make no distinction between the Republic and the Empirical parts of the era – they are all the Napoleonic wars to us even if he was but an artillery officer at their commencement.

I don't think the city itself was assaulted (I might be wrong though) but I know that a battle took place near Toulouse, almost under its walls.

Wellington assaulted the heights to the east of the city whilst simulataneously infiltrating the Western suburbs. He placed his artillery on the captured high ground and shelled Soualt out of the city. And it all took place four days after the Emporer had abdicated and was therefore quite pointless. There are therefore doubtless areas of the city today where skirmishes were fought. The whole era remains fascinating to me.

And to close a little quote from the Emporer for you

"Two powers like France and England, with a good understanding between them, might govern the world."

He clearly foresaw the arrival of Rugby!

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by finbar
I can only suggest to Caligastia and AndyDog that they both publicly ponder Leicester's fortunes at the moment. Endlessly.

I would if I could actually watch any of their games.