Marxists, please explain China.

[Urban Ranger]

DF,

That's why Marx envisoned communist revolutions to take place in highly advanced capitalist countries, and what he said about communism is based upon that. He also realised lesser forms to be possible, but AFAIK they are called "socialism."

[David Floyd]

My point was that if the ChiComs are doing this capitalist thing intentionally, in order to generate wealth prior to pure communism, they are not "ideologically pure". My other point is that Marx can have all the opinions he wants, but he has to know that a capitalist system is more efficient for generating wealth than a communist one - he may not care, but the fact remains.

[chequita guevara]

ChiComs? How quaint.

[David Floyd]

Quaint? You mean, sorta like communism?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Ned
Kid, well for one thing, technical progress virtually halts under communism. Competition is the engine that drives invention. There is no competition under communism. So, in order to achieve a high level of production before one adopts communism, society has to have a (at least one) period of capitalism.

You're not that far off. Wealth creation is an exploitive process, even in a classless system, because current generations must invest for future generations. Faster wealth creation is more natural under capitalism. Eventually the ability of capitalism to create wealth diminishes which causes widespread unemployment and the system collapses.

[David Floyd]

Eventually the ability of capitalism to create wealth diminishes which causes widespread unemployment and the system colapses.

Oh, good - the return of BAM.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by David Floyd
Oh, good - the return of BAM.

It's evident to those who know history.

[chequita guevara]

The system just collapsed there years ago in the U.S. That's what a recession is, a collapse. In historical terms, it wasn't very big, but it was very painful for a lot of people. Only three years before that, elsewhere in the world, the system collapsed in a big way, bringing down at leat one government (Indonesia), and bring others to he brink.

No BAM about it.

[David Floyd]

If you say so, che. Recessions have different explanations than a collapse of capitalism, and you know it. I'll leave it to people such as DanS or Adam Smith to explain it, if they so desire.

I'll just say that if you think capitalism will collapse of its own accord here in the US, you're seriously deluding yourself.

[Alinestra Covelia]

It's interesting that we should mention a period of capitalistic gain, followed by socialism. Something similar is being hinted at by Economist and NYTimes alike as far as China is concerned.

I can try for linkage later on if needed, but in a nutshell the Chinese leadership signalled that they were going to slow economic growth for 2004 in an effort to focus on raising the domestic living standard, especially inthe rural areas. If we take socialism to mean "capitalism with a social conscience" then this may be the future course for China... at least for 2004.

The Communist party seems to have a much more direct role in setting the economic agenda than most governments of similarly large countries, and so their policies can and do change with a relatively short turnaround period.

Fortunately they're starting to do something about all those damn vehicle emissions in the cities now!

[chequita guevara]

Before they started letting the capitalists into the party, I had my suspiciions. We were watching a documentary on the new entreprenuerial class, and I turned to Bunnygrrl and said, "In five-ten years, those people will all be dead."

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by David Floyd
If you say so, che. Recessions have different explanations than a collapse of capitalism, and you know it. I'll leave it to people such as DanS or Adam Smith to explain it, if they so desire.

I'll just say that if you think capitalism will collapse of its own accord here in the US, you're seriously deluding yourself.

Obviously you don't know your history. The long term rate of wealth creation has diminished in every nation that has industrialized. In fact, the US has had negative wealth creation since 2000. As Che has mentioned there are also short term periods of negative wealth creation, called recessions and depressions.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Alinestra Covelia
I can try for linkage later on if needed, but in a nutshell the Chinese leadership signalled that they were going to slow economic growth for 2004 in an effort to focus on raising the domestic living standard, especially inthe rural areas. If we take socialism to mean "capitalism with a social conscience" then this may be the future course for China... at least for 2004.

If they want to trade economic growth for higher living standards for current workers they should get the capitalists out of the Party.
I think they are more interested in slowing economic growth because they fear that they economy is overheating and they don't want it to collapse.

[Ned]

Still this is first for communism, is it not? In prior cases, the commies killed the capitalists and landlords, then installed socialism. In China, they killed them too (at least the one's who did not make it to Taiwan), installed socialism; and now they are reinstalling capitalism in order to breed more capitalists to kill!

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Ned
Still this is first for communism, is it not? In prior cases, the commies killed the capitalists and landlords, then installed socialism. In China, they killed them too (at least the one's who did not make it to Taiwan), installed socialism; and now they are reinstalling capitalism in order to breed more capitalists to kill!

It's just about power with them. It doesn't matter if you want to call them communists or capitalist, or fascists. It's all about power for them.