Some eyewitnesses say that some men who were minding their own business joined the fight because the Americans rolled into the center of town and started shooting indiscriminately. This doesn't seem credible
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Yeah!!!! Stick it to those mother$%^& and break it off!!!!
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Last BBC radio broadcast I heard, the local hospitals were reporting 8 civilians dead and dozens injured.
So not a TOTAL success in the hearts and minds war - although it will boost the morale of coalition troops.
Incidentally Ted Stryker, we had a thread on RPG effectiveness versus the Abrahms several months ago. Now let's see if I can dig out the URL... Nope, but here's a piccie;
So, although RPG's are USUALLY ineffective... never say never!Last edited by Cruddy; December 1, 2003, 10:41.Some cry `Allah O Akbar` in the street. And some carry Allah in their heart.
"The CIA does nothing, says nothing, allows nothing, unless its own interests are served. They are the biggest assembly of liars and theives this country ever put under one roof and they are an abomination" Deputy COS (Intel) US Army 1981-84
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US soldiers are so scared... It would not be strange at all.
What do Fedayeen "uniforms" look like?I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
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I read that the US nr of 46 dead was not based on a body count, but on interviews with soldiers. If correct, my, we all know how well methods like these worked in another war...
Or it's moral boosting time, so they needed another Lynch story.“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
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Speaking of ducks.....
CARL HIAASEN
Iraq becomes Operation Sitting Duck
Sun, Nov. 30, 2003 - Miami Herald
A few days ago, two American soldiers in Iraq were shot, dragged from a truck and viciously beaten with concrete blocks. Their bodies were left on a dusty street in Mosul, a city once considered one of the safest for U.S. forces.
The murder and mutilation was carried out not by hardened operatives of al Qaeda, but by a gang of Iraqi teenagers, the very generation for whom we've been battling to ''liberate'' the country.
For any civilians to act so barbarously shows a depth of hatred that is chilling. As the months drag on, and the flag-draped coffins of fallen Americans keep arriving at Dover Air Force Base, the mission in Iraq makes less sense than ever.
What are we doing there? Who are we fighting? How do we get out? The only question that now seems hollow is why we ever invaded in the first place.
The search for the phantom weapons of mass destruction has been reduced to a nightly punchline in Jay Leno's monologue. No nukes, no anthrax and no nerve gas have been found; nothing to justify President Bush's pre-war declaration that Saddam Hussein posed an immediate threat to global security.
So far, the most dangerous weapons uncovered are decidely low-tech -- pistols, rifles, homemade bombs, land mines and RPGs fired from donkey-drawn wagons. Unfortunately, they're doing a bang-up job of maiming and killing Americans.
The atmosphere in Iraq remains so perilous that on Thanksgiving Day, Bush had to sneak into Baghdad on a darkened Air Force One.
Whether the war was launched on false pretenses or merely faulty intelligence will be argued endlessly. The grim fact is that we're there now, and we're stuck.
In Afghanistan the mission was so clear. We were responding to a brazen attack against Americans on American soil. We knew who did it, and where they were hiding. The international community was virtually united behind us.
Iraq is another story. Saddam Hussein was a despicable tyrant, but not even the White House claims that he played a direct role in the Sept. 11 attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.
Picked off by snipers
The hijackers themselves weren't Iraqis, nor were those who planned the crime. The man who approved it, Osama bin Laden, was known to detest Saddam.
Yet here we are mired in Iraq, our troops getting picked off by snipers, sappers and roadside rocket jockeys. Call it Operation Sitting Duck.
The hawks in the administration gripe that the media is focusing only on the bad news out of Baghdad, but where's the good news?
Last week, U.S. Col. William Darley told reporters that attacks by Iraqi insurgents against U.S. forces had declined from a high of 40 per day in mid-November to about 30 per day now.
It hardly makes you want to pop the champagne, knowing that our troops are coming under fire more than once an hour.
This holiday weekend concludes the bloodiest month for U.S. forces since the so-called end of major combat. More than 60 U.S. soldiers have been killed by hostile fire in November.
As of Thanksgiving Day, a total of 183 had died since the president triumphantly jet-landed on that aircraft carrier May 1.
Technically, though, the White House was correct. Major combat in the conventional sense ended in Iraq. These days our soldiers are dying by ambush and assassination.
GI murders in Mosul
Despite somewhat muted media coverage -- Michael Jackson's arrest received more attention than the GI murders in Mosul -- polls show that the war is increasingly a political liability for the White House. Efforts are accelerating to put a new Iraqi government in place.
Bringing the troops home, however, will be a long time in coming. As long as Saddam Hussein remains at large, Bush will keep a sizeable fighting force on the ground.
His insistence that occupying Iraq is central to the war on terrorism grows more preposterous by the day. Saddam has disappeared, but the much larger evil of al Qaeda has been lethally busy in Saudi Arabia, Turkey and Pakistan.
Meanwhile, bin Laden himself is still alive and making dire threats. He's certainly not in Iraq, and nothing that happens in Iraq will bring us closer to catching him.
The grisly scene in Mosul last week recalled that infamous horror in Mogadishu a decade ago, when a Black Hawk helicopter was shot down and the mangled remains of U.S. servicemen were dragged through the streets by a celebratory mob.
An unseen enemy
It was a demoralizing episode for this country, but at least the soldiers in Somalia went down fighting. In Iraq the enemy is often unseen, indistinguishable from friendly civilians, and the shots and grenades come out of nowhere.
Troops who were trained to wage war are now courageously trying to wage peace. In such a role they must be visible and ubiquitous in a land where they aren't universally welcome.
The results have been deadly though not unanticipated. The question for Bush is how long before the American people decide that the best exit plan is to elect a president with an exit plan.
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Originally posted by HershOstropoler
"Hmm, could that be bacause there isn't one?"
I already told you in detail that there is no forum to bring a legal case in the decentralised structure of international law. Could you please stop being a propaganda tool here and keep it for Iraq?This coming from a man whose topical posts, every single one of them, is critical of US policy. A poster whose replies are 100% one-sided is as much a "propoganda" tool as his opponents whose posts are opposite of his beliefs, don't you think?
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JohnT: What happened to Hersh being a thoughtful, knowledgable and well-reasoned poster on page 2?I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Yeah!!!! Stick it to those mother$%^& and break it off!!!!
Originally posted by Zylka
Not at all. One involved a vehicle rampaging down the street spraying bullets at civilians, the other a tank deciding it's high time those factory workers start... **** I don't know. It's just obvious that American forces looooove that Thanksgiving civilian hunt.
American troops in humvees are shown on video firing machine guns as they drive down a street in a shopping district. Now maybe they took out some enemy combatants, but the video also shows a civilian is killed. But hey, the Yanks are taking down the Iraqi thugs and all the wannabe Americans cheer.
A reporter is on the scene and reports that an American tank fired on workers leaving a factory, but hey, its the Iraqis fault, according to the wannabe American.
And we got all these armchair cheerleaders go Hoorah, we kicked Iraqi butt today.
Yeah, the American troops fought off an ambush and killed the attackers, but civilians also died. And yeah, that's war, but it ain't a football game. There's no point in cheering another bloody day in Iraq.Golfing since 67
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Originally posted by DinoDoc
JohnT: What happened to Hersh being a thoughtful, knowledgable and well-reasoned poster on page 2?
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Originally posted by Tingkai
A reporter is on the scene and reports that an American tank fired on workers leaving a factory, but hey, its the Iraqis fault, according to the wannabe American.Last edited by DinoDoc; December 1, 2003, 12:13.I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio
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Originally posted by JohnT
He is also 100% consistently against US policy in any shape or form, he's just thoughtful, knowledgable, and well-reasoned about it.“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
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Originally posted by HershOstropoler
I read that the ....I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio
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Who cares what Hershey thinks?
Does it really matter in the big scheme of things?Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
"Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead
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