Taiwan tells China to piss off...

[PLATO]

Re: Re: Taiwan tells China to piss off... again!

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


As I pointed out elsewhere, that's a much weaker version of the thang that Chen wants it to be.

So?

Taiwan has taken another step toward independence. Slowly they are seperating from the mainland...appearing to never go quite far enough to trigger a war.

Good Luck to the freedom seekers!

[Drake Tungsten]

appearing to never go quite far enough to trigger a war.

It also appears that they would've went farther this time around if the U.S. hadn't made it clear that we don't want a crisis in the Taiwan Strait at this time.

[Ned]

On communism vs. fascism in China, it would be interesting to see just how much of the economy continued to state owned and planned. Also, do their farmers exist only in communes, etc.

[Alinestra Covelia]

Well, the commune system was dismantled even as early as 1987, when Deng declared the old system a failure. State owned companies are currently deregulating at a fairly steady pace (recently, the central government even issued statements that it would no longer fund more than two newspapers per province - many of my fellow journalists from the mainland say this is going to be the thin end of the wedge for long term political press freedom).

The central government does have a fear that over reliance on market forces could lead to wrenching destabilization. In any case, any such changes would be much more gradual than anything seen in Taiwan. When you're dealing with such a large populace and so underdeveloped a sprawling hinterland, speed is not always your top priority.

As for Taiwanese independence, the average Chinese thinker tends to be very clear that Taiwan is a part of China. How far this owes itself to government propaganda is doubtful, but many of my former classmates at Qinghua felt that eventual peaceful reunification was inevitable, so long as the economic and cultural similarities could overcome the political differences.

It would be nice if mainland China could liberalize to match the freedoms in Taiwan. To do this, we'd need a leadership level commitment to liberalization, as well as a leadership that can nonetheless apply checks to the process to keep it from causing too great a social rift between haves and have-nots.

Currently, one view is that China's current leadership is concerned only with self-service and self-preservation. I have no intention of defending them from the accusation.

But I also feel (as do many members of my father's family - Taiwanese born and bred) that the politicians who stand up and renounce all ties with the mainland do so with no regard for the historical, cultural, and familial ties between the two. My grandfather had a Taiwanese passport - all his siblings stayed behind and have Chinese passports. They never considered themselves separate countrymen. Go back two generations, and there is no difference at all, political or national.

A politician who severs his people from their cultural and historical background, ostensibly in their name, is just as guilty of playing to the political gallery as the mainland's bureaucrats. A declaration of independence would effectively end association with China's cultural heritage. My cousins have never been Communists, but they're all very clear that they're Chinese - albeit residing in Taiwan.

Hopefully, China's industrialization can lead to political loosening and stability, such that autonomy (in Tibet and Hong Kong) becomes real in deed rather than just a catchphrase. My father is not happy with having one half of the family in Zhejiang Province in China, and the other in Taipei and Taichung, never to see each other. He says he hopes for a situation where Taiwan reunifies with China, and the mainland will have developed to the point where everything actually stays the same.

It's important to remember that while there may be plenty of drawbacks to being a Communist, there's nothing wrong with being Chinese.

Looking at some of the posts here, it's evidently an easy thing to miss.

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Alinestra Covelia
the politicians who stand up and renounce all ties with the mainland do so with no regard for the historical, cultural, and familial ties between the two. My grandfather had a Taiwanese passport - all his siblings stayed behind and have Chinese passports. They never considered themselves separate countrymen. Go back two generations, and there is no difference at all, political or national.

That sounds very similar to arguments against the US revolution. It is not always a bad thing to seperate. If done properly, then both nations could be stronger for it. So,"When in the course of human events..."


Additionally, it appears that the mainland will not make the necessary concessions to freedom necessary for the reunification to be anything beneficial to Taiwan other than not being attacked. IMO the Taiwanese people are persuing freedom...a worthy goal indeed.

[Alinestra Covelia]

I think the only thing in your post that I disagree with is your appraisal of the Chinese government's ability to change. Already we're seeing unprecedented changes in the political system... small beans compared to a democratic system, to be sure, but still a good indication of possible future reforms.

I still hold reunification to be the best outcome. There is so much to link the two regions that independence is hardly a catch-all solution.

Of course, for reunification to work, it would have to be beneficial for Taiwan, which the present situation does not suggest. But if we're willing to wait a few decades of modernization (without either side doing anything incendiary) it could happen.

The last time President Chen hinted at a referendum to declare independence, Taiwanese factory stocks plummeted as their economic moguls prepared to take their monies back to the mainland. Of course, you can't blame Chen for this - the threat of a Chinese attack had a lot to do with it - but I'd say it's a sign that there's too much common ground culturally and economically to separate.

[Ned]

Ali, does China have independent corporations that can make what they choose, sell it for unregulated prices, make as much profit as it can, and distribute dividends to its stockholders?

[Alinestra Covelia]

Do you mean domestic companies? If so, then I have to profess ignorance. If you mean foreign companies, then yes. My father works for Rolls Royce aerospace, which is still (just about) a British company. Siemens, Motorola, Nokia, and Volkswagen are doing good business there.

If you were about to make a point about Taiwan's economic freedom over China's, then consider the point made. But the main thrust of my argument was that true cross-straits equality is still far off in the future - and moreover is attainable and worth working towards.

[Drake Tungsten]

A declaration of independence would effectively end association with China's cultural heritage.

Why? It's quite possible to renounce ties to the government of mainland China and still consider yourself Chinese and the receipient of its cultural heritage. Just look at the large population of overseas Chinese.

Besides, it's not like a united, monolithic Chinese state is necessary for the continued propagation of Chinese culture. Historically, Chinese culture has done quite well and even thrived in times when China itself was divided into two of more states.

[Urban Ranger]

Re: Re: Re: Taiwan tells China to piss off... again!

Originally posted by PLATO
So?

That means Chen's scheme was foiled. Or rather, not even some members of the DPP want to get their arses fried.

Originally posted by PLATO
Taiwan has taken another step toward independence. Slowly they are seperating from the mainland...appearing to never go quite far enough to trigger a war.

Do they? It looks to me that Chen has played his ace-in-the-hole. Sorta like the Confederates at Gettysburg.

Originally posted by PLATO
Good Luck to the freedom seekers!

Freedom is such an empty word by now.

[Drake Tungsten]

Freedom is such an empty word by now.

Maybe in Hong Kong...

[DaShi]

Ali, I swear that I've seen a Chinese girl who looks just like your avatar at my school here in China. You haven't been taking any trips to Zhejiang recently, have you? Or maybe you do all look alike.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
Why? It's quite possible to renounce ties to the government of mainland China and still consider yourself Chinese and the receipient of its cultural heritage. Just look at the large population of overseas Chinese.

Funny you mention that. Many of them do not consider themselves Chinese at all.

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
Besides, it's not like a united, monolithic Chinese state is necessary for the continued propagation of Chinese culture. Historically, Chinese culture has done quite well and even thrived in times when China itself was divided into two of more states.

You have it backwards. Historically, it was the strength of the Chinese culture that eventually unified the country after periods of division.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

Freedom is such an empty word by now.

Maybe in Hong Kong...

Indeed, we hear the term espoused by USians all the time. Meaningless.

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


Funny you mention that. Many of them do not consider themselves Chinese at all.

Actually many of them do.