Carol Moseley Braun on Affirmative Action

[rah]

Originally posted by Caligastia
Why ESPECIALLY for white males? Either you think all people should be judged on their ability or you don't.

That especially was just a reminder that we've had it the best because of it, and it should stop. Don't read too much into that one word please. Take it as part of the entire post.

A lot of my success might be attributed to being a somewhat well connected white male that is slender and tall. (all things I have no control over) I used to think that it was due to my brains, personality and hard work. (when you're young, you know everything with such certainty) But now, I can't be sure. There are many people with brains, personality and a strong work ethic that have not attained the same success that I have. If I had been a short stubby black person, would I have succeeded as well? I have come to the conclusion that the answer is probably not. (and I can't be sure if luck factored into it.)

So I don't want to hear white males claiming to be victims. We've always had the benefits and sadly probably will for quite a while longer.

In a perfect world ability and work ethics would be the ultimate yardsticks.

[David Floyd]

So I don't want to hear white males claiming to be victims.

The fact does remain, though, that AA can victimize some SPECIFIC white males, although you are right in that white males, AS A GROUP, tend to have certain advantages.

From my perspective, though, penalizing certain individuals just because they are a member of a certain group is wrong, even if everyone else in the group has succeeded because of that membership.

That's poorly worded, but the point is this: White males as individuals can be victimized by affirmitive action. "White males", as a group, are probably not really victimized by it.

[rah]

As I said, I'm not a fan of AA. It's just an excuse to continue the evils of the past, but to benefit a different group of people. No one should have that advantage.
Unfortunately I can't compensate for the past One must look to just be fair in the future. AA doesn't accomplish that. But I still don't want to hear white males whining about how unfairly they're treated.

[David Floyd]

And my only point is that I agree white males, as a group, do have some advantages, however, individual white males can still be treated unfairly by AA. Surely that much is clear.

For example, you and I are both white males, but you probably have some advantages I do not - namely, better connections. As a potential result, I can be more easily victimized by AA than you can.

[rah]

I agree.
But my point is, even if you are victimized by AA, the advantages well outweigh it.

[David Floyd]

Which still doesn't justify the victimization.

[Whaleboy]

Whats AA?

[David Floyd]

Affirmitive Action. Giving, say, black people jobs because they are black.

[rah]

Originally posted by David Floyd
Which still doesn't justify the victimization.

I have already said I agree.
And nothing justifies the previous victimization.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Whaleboy
Whats AA?

Despite what Floyd says, AA is a policy which says you cannot exclude a qualified applicant just because he or she is a member of a racial minority or a woman or a member of a particular religious group. Up until recently, and even still today, this was the case in universities and businesses in the U.S. It also gives people who feel they've been discriminated against legal remmedies to persue.

In order to show that they are complying with AA (and thus protect themelves from a lawsuit), some universities and companies have gone a little further in the other direction than they should have. Setting quotas, for example.

By far and away the biggest benficeries of AA are whites, because of the increased opportunities that have been opened for white women. As a result, white family incomes have increased in real dollars over the past 30 years, even if individual incomes have dropped.

Diversity is not the same as AA, though having a diverse student body or workforce cuold be considered a defense against charges of discrimination. Universities persue diversity because for the same reason that they require people to take an art class, because they want people to become well-rounded individuals, and so they give women and minorities a boost into schools, which, until recently, were still largely dominated by white men. These days, women are more likely to go to school.

But in the upper eschalons of society, it is still overwhelmingly, white, Anglo-Saxon, male, and Protestant. Whether you're looking at CEOs, corporate boards, university faculty and administration, or the governemnt, the view is always the same: white men. And it's not because we earned it.

[David Floyd]

No, Che's definition of AA is actually just basic non-discrimination laws (which, by the way, I oppose when the government applies them to private businesses). That may be what AA was INTENDED to do, but the actual effect of it is closer to what I described - that is, black (or minority, whatever) applicants getting the job over equally or better qualified white applicants, simply on the basis of their race.

[rah]

Despite all,
White male, still has the overall advantage.
Despite all the years that AA has been around, it has had very minor effects on the makeup of board of directors of most companies. (except, of course for HR directors and very few token positions)

For every unqualified black that got a position, multiple unqualified white males got other positions. If you think otherwise, you're very naive.

[chequita guevara]

Well, you can believe Floyd, who just believes what he's told on the subject, or me, who actually studied the laws the created Affirmative Action.

And rah is rather correct. I might go a lttie further even and say that for every qualified minority/female applicant you can find multiple unqualfied white male successes.

[David Floyd]

And I already SAID that the intent of AA was probably different from the actual practice of AA, in many cases.

[rah]

and for every black that got accepted into a college because of an AA program you can bet that there were two unqualified white males that got accepted because their parents were friends with someone on the board of trustees, or a state senator, or daddy and mummy where alumni, or daddy made a contribution, etc. etc.