What's the difference between fascism and nationalism?

[Sandman]

I'd be wary of saying that fascism is an extreme form of nationalism. It might be more accurate to say that fascism always incorporates extreme nationalism.

Nationalism, or rather nationalist arguments, can be used by pretty much any ideology. Communists, conservatives, liberals and libertarians all make use of them.

[Ned]

Spiffor, it was Joan, was it not, that inspired the whole concept of nationalism? She made the war against the English a war of the French nation against a foreign nation, where before, it had been merely a war of one set of nobles against another.

Add to this the concept that everything in the nation, including all its institutions and people, must support the nation otherwise you become an enemy of the nation, and you have fascism. But in this sense too, Joan was a fascist.

I look at China and I see a fascist nation. Ditto, Castro's Cuba and Ho Chi Min's Vietnam.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I'm just gonna pick nits and not debate everything about facism, which the politically inclined have defined very well.

emphasizes Islamic identity over national identity

Well, could it not be argued that fundies percieve the Islamic world as THEIR nation? No one ever said that nations must be tied to states. It merely can be preference for a super-nation over the relative sub-nations.

Im not sure a facsist regime has to be protectionist by definition.

Well Facism believes in autarky (all things to be produced should be done inside the country). This is so that the nation is not dependant on others and is self-sufficient.

[Nubclear]

Originally posted by Ned
Add to this the concept that everything in the nation, including all its institutions and people, must support the nation otherwise you become an enemy of the nation, and you have fascism. But in this sense too, Joan was a fascist.

I could easily turn this around against you Ned, but I think you've been humiliated in this thread enough I'll let someone else do it

No, Stalin was commie.

Cause he said so right?

And I think we're all forgetting an essential term...One that does fit fascism and describes America quite well

JINGOISM

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally posted by Whaleboy
Fascist: What a liberal would call a nationalist. Not without reason.

Nor without consequences, commie scum.

[The Vagabond]

One should not confuse a right-wing dictatorship (e.g. Franco's Spain) with fascism. I believe the key feature of fascism, yet not mentioned in this thread, consists in imposing a kind of biological selection upon the society. For example, if the government declares that people with dark hair are dumb, and only blonds are allowed to procreate, this would be a fascist policy. Or perhaps people with certain features should be sterilized. Well, that needs not be so drastic. There may softer versions. E.g. blonds having advantage when applying for jobs. Another example. Racism is not necessarily fascism. However, if biological foundations are put forth to justify inferiority of a certain group of people, and actions are taken upon them, this is facism.

Nonetheless, there is a factor that is very important when deciding whether certain things can be considered fascism or not -- the historic factor. For example, the blacks were certainly considered a biologically inferior race in the times of slavery, and action was taken accordingly. But this was not fascism. The thing is that by then the human society had simply not yet grown up to understanding certain kinds of things. However, if a modern dictatorship decided to treat a group of people in this way on a biological basis, that would be fascism.

Thus, from the viewpoint of the historic factor, fascism is a kind of regression from a contemporary level of enlightment, based on biological considerations.

Another example. Persecution of homosexuals is in essence a fascist policy. But it may not be perceived as such in view of the historic reasons. Simply we have not matured enough for that (not yet).

[MrFun]

Where did PA get the idea that all left-wingers use the words fascist and nationalist interhchangeably??

[Sava]

Fez thinks that a mass-murderer who killed over 200,000 people was a good leader... that's nice.

Franco was a murderous pig. Maybe that's why the Nazis liked him so much and gave him support during the Spanish Civil War. It was a dark period in European history, where European Democracies further appeased the right wing and fascist elements rising in Europe. Freedom lost as the ideal of the Republic was crushed by a soon-to-be dictator, hell bent on murdering anyone who didn't see things his way.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Ramo

But Italy was nonetheless solidly Catholic. Why wasn't Mussolini more pro-church? That was the local tradition and distinctiveness.

The church had opposed Italian unification, and for several decades had kept the city of Rome out of Italy, and for several decades afterwards had refused to recognize the Italian state. Most Italian nationalists pre-1918 were secularist and hostile to the church. That was the tradition of Italian nationalism, which was not the case in Spain, where the church had been identified with Spains existence as a state for hundreds of years. Actually by signing a concordat with the Papacy Mussolini was attempting to reconcile Catholic traditions with nationalist traditions. No such reconciliation was required in Spain.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
I'm just gonna pick nits and not debate everything about facism, which the politically inclined have defined very well.

emphasizes Islamic identity over national identity

Well, could it not be argued that fundies percieve the Islamic world as THEIR nation? No one ever said that nations must be tied to states. It merely can be preference for a super-nation over the relative sub-nations.

Good point - I think we are in agreement here - the nature of the "nation" that the fascists advocate for is dependent on local political culture, and may not resemble the nation states of western (liberal) political theory.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by MrFun
Where did PA get the idea that all left-wingers use the words fascist and nationalist interhchangeably??

Probably from the protestors who run around calling Bush and Blair fascists.

[lord of the mark]

re Joan d'arc.

One, calling her fascist is anachronistic imho.
1. I see fascism as a response to modernization, industrialization, and yes, class conflict in early industrial capitalism. Not applicable to 15thC France.
2. Opposing democracy, etc was not meaningful to Joan, since it didnt exist.
3. Full mobilization - i doubt anyone in the 15thC could have conceived of full mobilization of a societys resources.

Nonetheless - it should be pointed out that Joan was adopted as a symbol by pre-1914 French right wing nationalists - at least some of whom could be seen as embodying trends that led to fascism. OTOH as everyone knows Joan was an important symbol to De Gaulle - a very important representative of a nationalist, chauvinist, and rightist point of view who was firmly Anti-fascist.

How did the 1930's French fascists view Joan? the Petainists?

[MikeH]

Originally posted by MrFun
Where did PA get the idea that all left-wingers use the words fascist and nationalist interhchangeably??

He didn't say all left-wingers, he just implied it. Excellent troll phrasing of the first post.

[Spiffor]

Ned:

I'm wondering how to counter-troll you. Could you please choose what kind of counter-troll you'd prefer?

1. So, you say all those military leaders who justify war by the nation are fascists? I agree with you. That's why I think George Washington and Lincoln are exactly the same as Ho Shi Minh and Mao: all fascist scum

2. You mix nationalism and fascism at will? What are you? A radical ignornat leftist of the same kind as Park Avenue is rambling about?

3. So, all those who appreciate war are fascists? Sorry guy, but I think you are a fascict overjoyed with war and death (see 5th post)

[chequita guevara]

Re: What's the difference between fascism and nationalism?

Your momma.