Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

For your reading pleasure: some ignorant babble!

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • For your reading pleasure: some ignorant babble!

    This idea is something I've had floating around in my head for a while now, and is based more on gut feeling and intuition than any actual knowledge of what I'm talking about. You've been warned.

    I am strongly inclined to think that time travel is impossible, for reasons related to my absolute worst subject in school, mathematics. You know how, in early algebra, they teach you to define functions in terms of other functions? E.G., if f(x)=x^2, and g(x)=x+5, f(g(x))=X^2+10x+25. This is only useful assuming you will later assign some actual value to X, though, like all functions. Like my computer teachers say, Garbage In, Garbage Out. A function is only as valuable as its input is accurate. So f(g(x)) is really only useful as a shortcut, compressing two formulae together so you can apply both at once at a later time.

    What you have with time travel, however, is something like f(f(x)), without the possibility of value ever being assigned to X other than f(x). Because the future exists as a consequence of the past, and events therein, putting yourself into the past is much like f(f(x)); you're defining something in terms of itself, and the resulting definition means you have to redefine it as itself again, and that means you have to redefine it again, and again, and again, and again. In the case of the f(x) I mentioned above, you would wind up just squaring a nonsense variable over and over again, until you wound up with something like x^thirty million, and you'd still be no closer to a meaningful definition than when you started.

    Of course, this is pretty much common knowledge, albeit in a slightly different form, as the cliched "grandfather paradox." The way to avoid the GP, ostensibly, is to avoid doing anything that will change the flow of time, but that doesn't sound possible to me. Merely by existing you inhale and exhale oxygen and other gases, give off waste heat, reflect light, etc. These don't seem meaningful, but the fact remains that you are swapping around molecules, or energy, or something, not to mention exerting an influence on your environment in terms of electromagnetics and gravity. It's a tiny, impossible-to-notice influence, but you're still stuck defining certain events in terms of their own consequences, and the changes will affect the present you that causes them in one way or another...right? If we can tell that stars an unfathomable distance away have planets from the slight tug gravity puts on them, surely molecules as close together as within the atmosphere of our own earth have some miniscule effect on each other. The tiny effect changes the nature of the particles that will later compose the future you, which then is presumptively manifested in the you in the past, which in turn has a -slight- effect on the past again, and again, and again. I'm guessing so, that is. I know most of my quantum mechanics from "Timeline," for crying out loud. Cut me some slack.
    1011 1100
    Pyrebound--a free online serial fantasy novel

  • #2
    I saw an interview of a few (quantum) physicists. What I got from it was basically this:

    I am in Spaceship A. I can travel at around 99.9% of the speed of light(since technically, you can't go as fast/faster than that). My mission is to travel across the universe. From the people on Earth's perspective, this will take me forever. But from the spaceship crews' perspective, it will only be a short time. Therefore, you have 'time travelled'.

    Comment


    • #3
      Oh yes, and one of the phycisists claims he has found the elusive element/matter/thing that will allow him to create a wormhole/stargate.

      Comment


      • #4
        Elok - f(f(x)) poses no problem. What you mean is saying f(x) = g(f(x)) (or f(f(x)). That is called a recursive function. For that, you provide a value for usually f(1) or f(0). A notable recursive function is that for the Fibonacci numbers.

        Comment


        • #5
          The thing about time travel is that it either requires a second temporal dimension or a sort of instantaneous change. The second temporal dimension is essentially what is described in Timeline, where you have multiple "universes". The idea there is when you go back, you aren't touching your own timeline, you are touching another. The "instantaneous change" thing requires you to have a slightly different perception of time. You picture everything as happening, time travel happens, makes a change, time travel happens differently or doesn't, change happens, forever and ever until it falls into a stable timeline that doesn't invalidate itself. All of this would happen "instantly".

          Of course, it's more likely that time travel is just impossible.

          Comment


          • #6
            I was thinking that Skywalker, as long as you have a starting point, a recursive function can happily recurse.

            Changing the start value will of likely lead to a change in flow.

            Now if you believe that all possible outcomes of the universe exist at the same time (yehh that naff series Sliders used that theory), you would simply be dimension shifting .. and the current existance would continue to occur, so therefore you have not mucked up history, more like moved to an alternative one.

            So, if people in the future have gone back in history, its likely that any that ended up here, were not from our future, but an alternative one.
            "Wherever wood floats, you will find the British" . Napoleon

            Comment


            • #7
              The Viceroy - when did I say differently about recursive functions? Look at what happens to Fibonacci when you change F(1) and F(2) (both are 1).

              Now if you believe that all possible outcomes of the universe exist at the same time (yehh that naff series Sliders used that theory), you would simply be dimension shifting .. and the current existance would continue to occur, so therefore you have not mucked up history, more like moved to an alternative one.

              So, if people in the future have gone back in history, its likely that any that ended up here, were not from our future, but an alternative one.


              That's what I was talking about with a second temporal dimension.

              Comment


              • #8
                Let me explain what I mean by a second temporal dimension. Imagine time as a sheet of paper (each point on the paper has an associated three-dimensional space representing the state of the universe at that point in time). Every object moves constantly along BOTH time dimensions (horizontally and vertically) instead of just one dimension, like normal. If you go back in time (I'll call the time we see passing vertical time), then you go down along the paper, not only "backwards" vertically but you will also be in a different timeline (the timelines run diagonally, because they move horizontally and vertically at the same time). So, you won't be affecting something that would "later" be the timeline that produced you; you would be in a different timeline.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Yes, I read that in Timeline, but even the metaphor there falls through in key points. First off, he says that photons from alternate realities can affect each others' behavior or some such, which implies that causality could occur in some strange fashion. Secondly, he mentions in passing that they rely on some sort of proxy from an alternate reality to reconstruct the people on the other end, which even as I'm typing occurs to me to be completely irrelevant to the point I'm making, so never mind.

                  Also, the Fibonacci numbers are a series, like normal linear events. They are constructed based on prior results, and while unlimited, progress in an orderly fashion. 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13... With time travel, however, events are their own cause on some level, and so what you wind up with is something more like the tech loops that give Civ2 a fit. A requires B requires A. Because you exist as a consequence of the past, you are making your state dependent on itself, which of course is not resolved as a definite quantity until all events determining its nature have passed.

                  I suppose a more accurate metaphor would be to call time travel something like A=A+9. Any number you plug in makes it false, and if you attempt to adjust either side to update it to what the other says, you instantly falsify the other side anyway.

                  Try this to make your head hurt: take a five-year-old child into the year 1000, and bring him back when he's matured to eighteen. The child will have grown by about a hundred pounds, and thus from 1013 to 2003 the world will inexplicably weigh 100 pounds less than it should, and from 2003 onward the world will weigh an extra hundred pounds. From 1000 to 1013 there will be an excess weight of however much the kid weighed at age five. Temporal gravity-binge.

                  Note also that, if chaos theory is correct, the flapping of a butterfly's wings can cause different weather hundreds of miles away, so presumptively the added breath of a five-year-old back then could result in one of Gandhi's ancestors getting killed by a freak storm. On the other hand, it could result in an Austrian peasant named Hitler getting struck by lightning instead, so you see that the presence or absence of toddlers from the future plays a large role in determining world events.
                  1011 1100
                  Pyrebound--a free online serial fantasy novel

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    If alternate universes exist based on infinite probablities, why am I in the ****ty one?
                    “As a lifelong member of the Columbia Business School community, I adhere to the principles of truth, integrity, and respect. I will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do.”
                    "Capitalism ho!"

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by DaShi
                      If alternate universes exist based on infinite probablities, why am I in the ****ty one?
                      TELEGRAM FROM TWELVE DIMENSIONS OVER:
                      Hey, we have problems with woodpeckers spontaneously materializing out of thin air and trying to direct-harvest our pubic lice. Plus we have sperm whales and bowls of fruit falling on our heads. Now quit *****ing.
                      1011 1100
                      Pyrebound--a free online serial fantasy novel

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        SkyWalker, I think you misunderstood .. I was agreeing with you.
                        "Wherever wood floats, you will find the British" . Napoleon

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Elok
                          TELEGRAM FROM TWELVE DIMENSIONS OVER:
                          Hey, we have problems with woodpeckers spontaneously materializing out of thin air and trying to direct-harvest our pubic lice. Plus we have sperm whales and bowls of fruit falling on our heads. Now quit *****ing.
                          good point

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by DaShi
                            If alternate universes exist based on infinite probablities, why am I in the ****ty one?
                            Because you don't exist in the rest
                            (\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
                            (='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
                            (")_(") "Starting the fire from within."

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I'm no expert on any of these theories, but then again, who is?

                              Sting theory is a funny thing too.

                              If such strings exist and influence other particles, and these particles interactions determine dimensions, than the other dimensions are not based on prbability now are they. The dimensions might be caused by differences in reactions of the fundemental forces by that particle to those of other particles. Chaotic, but not a random probability... that is really the main point here.

                              Still, these strings need to exist in X number of dimension (something I think is really arbitrary, but is still a debate) in order for their responses to occur in the fashion the do to our observances. What I get from this is that these strings which exist in spacial dimensions and temporal dimensions react to spacial and temporal fluctuations yet still have "constants" that exist (or could exist) in some other dimension! I think that is rather important, and from my limited knowledge of this stuff rather overlooked.

                              Is time travel possible? Of course. Is it probable? I think so too. I think there are dimensions, yet not owed to randomness but to predictable "reactions" of the strings. Also, since even when these strings react to one another something stays the same within them. If we could figure out how to make the desired dimensional aspects of these strings remain constant and change only that which we want, then that would be time travel. I think these strings already perform this... Yes, I am crazy.

                              Like shooting marbles. I shoot a marble in the z direction with another marble, the strings react in a z direction as well as in a t direction while y and x and whatever other non-observed dimensions exist remain constant.

                              We are able to set the conditions for spacial coordinants with ease, and we are learning to control time as well (through catalytic reactions, medications, fertilizers and the like). Perhaps one day we will be able to measure time as a vector instead of a line, and maybe one day we learn how to control it... I just won't rule it out.

                              I babble too



                              Monkey!!!

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X