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  • #211
    "but to compare them to my inlaws at Auschwitz IS a vile trivializations"

    Which is why I said "It's far from the holocaust". Did you overread that?

    But your "Gitmo is a detention camp for people caught on the battlefield" is a travialization, I stand by that.
    “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

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    • #212
      Cbs Feb 2003

      'The U.S. Defense Department confirmed Thursday that there has been another suicide attempt among inmates at its Guantanamo Bay prison for terrorist suspects, bringing the number of five in three weeks.

      "Medical and psychiatric teams are working to try to prevent further injury or attempts," Pentagon spokeswoman Navy Lt. Cmdr. Barbara Burfeind said, declining further comment.

      Including the 10 attempts in all of 2002, the new case brought the total to 15 since the high-security prison was built on the U.S. naval base a year ago to house men captured in the fight against terrorism. '

      15 attempts among over 600 people held for over a year. Maybe worse than most US high schools, but i doubt much worse than most prisons.

      And notice - psychiatric teams working to prevent further attempts - Awh, that proves how mean we are - we're subjecting them to therapy!!! Think the Nazis ever did this for my inlaws?

      Look - young men commit suicide. being in prison is rotten. I can understand it would make you want to commit suicide. Even if the conditions are ideal.
      "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

      Comment

      • #213
        "Mionrs - what 17 year olds?"

        I think 15 or 16 for the youngest.

        "Youre comparing this to people who murdered 4 year olds."

        I'm not comparing Guantanomo to Auschwitz. Read again.

        "Driven to suicide - youre comparing this to being murdered?"

        Depending on the circumstances, it can be murder.

        "How many people commit suicide in european prisons?"

        Less than in the US, I'd assume.

        "yet we're told that theres a huge moral difference between the US and europe cause we have the death penalty."

        I don't know what this has to do with the issue, but that's definately correct.

        "These men were caught on battlefields."

        Or in some medreasa. How do you know?

        "Theyre illegal combatants"

        As established under which procedure, by whom?

        "not POWS cause they are not part of a recognized army"

        Irrelevant.

        "Do you really think theyre NOT members of AQ?"

        I don't know. That's why I want an independent tribunal to establish that. Next time someone accuses you of something, will you be happy with the prosecutor saying "nah, i don't treally think he's innocent" to lock you up indefinately?
        “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

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        • #214
          Gtimo IS a detention camp. The folks there have been caught in battlefields (including shootouts in pakistani cities and elsewhere) They are also interrogated there ( to not get as much info out of them as possible would be idiotic) And theyre not being mistreated or killed.

          Example - on of the individuals there is probably Khalid Sheik mohammed. He was caught in Pakistan, where he was running global operations for al qaeeda. Do you think hes not a terrorist?
          "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

          Comment

          • #215
            Originally posted by HershOstropoler
            "I don't know. That's why I want an independent tribunal to establish that. Next time someone accuses you of something, will you be happy with the prosecutor saying "nah, i don't treally think he's innocent" to lock you up indefinately?

            we're at war. An independent tribunal would be an opportunity for them to gain info to use in defeating interrogation, and to pass on information to the outside. We possess Al Qaeda documents showing how they attempt to counter interrogation, etc. We know they attempt to pass info in and out (er didnt you hear that there were alleged spies among the chaplains down there) Is it possible that the Bush admin is using this to arrest political dissidents, etc? er, I havent noticed any missing. Chomsky- check. Ramsey Clark - check. etc. Or maybe political types in pakistan? Doubtful. Pakis would wanna keep those. And in the cases where political islamist types have been arrested, like Abu bashir in Indonesia, hes being held and tried there, not at Gitmo. So i dont think this is being used politically no. So the risk is that they have taken innocents by mistake. Thats bad if it happens, but given the nature of the war we're fighting i can accept that risk.


            To make it personal. I know a lot of folks who study at Jewish yeshivas. I know that there are yeshivas that are aligned with the terrorist Kahanist movement. If the US or Israeli govt expected an imminent threat from the kahanists, and detained someone i knew from those yeshivas without trial, and it turned out that they were innocent and just got caught up - id say thats too bad, mistakes happen, and they should have known better than to go to a yeshiva aligned with terrorists.
            "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

            Comment

            • #216
              "The folks there have been caught in battlefields (including shootouts in pakistani cities and elsewhere)"

              How do you know that? Even the names are in part not documented.

              "And theyre not being mistreated"

              You're dreaming.

              "on of the individuals there is probably Khalid Sheik mohammed"

              Probably? But you know for certain that everyone there is guilty. Please.

              It's pissing in the face of habeas corpus for no good reason. It's just as useless as the British suspension of habeas corpus in NI and the arbitrary arrests of IRA suspects.
              “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

              Comment

              • #217
                Originally posted by HershOstropoler
                "but to compare them to my inlaws at Auschwitz IS a vile trivializations"

                Which is why I said "It's far from the holocaust". Did you overread that?
                You didnt state that when tecumseh made the comarison (unless ive missed something) You saw no need to discuss the matter then. Only when i responded did you say its far from the holocaust. A necessary distancing from an untenable position. You then compared my statements about Gitmo to Tecumsehs about the holocaust. You may disagree that gitmo is a detention camp for terrorists, but can you really think that is a "trivialization" such as comparing it to Auschwitz? Or is it just a nice rhetorical twist to turn the thread around?

                Feh!
                "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

                Comment

                • #218
                  "we're at war."

                  Fundamental error. The war only exists as a marketing ploy. I still wait for those rules being extended to the war on drugs and the war on obesity.

                  "An independent tribunal would be an opportunity for them to gain info to use in defeating interrogation"

                  Oh the horror. It's called the right to defend yourself.

                  "To make it personal. I know a lot of folks who study at Jewish yeshivas. I know that there are yeshivas that are aligned with the terrorist Kahanist movement. If the US or Israeli govt expected an imminent threat from the kahanists, and detained someone i knew from those yeshivas without trial, and it turned out that they were innocent and just got caught up - id say thats too bad, mistakes happen, and they should have known better than to go to a yeshiva aligned with terrorists."

                  Now that's monumentally ****ed up. I don't like to bring up that analogy, but you know what Schutzhaft was? You know the arguments of Best on legal counsel, judicial review etc?
                  “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

                  Comment

                  • #219
                    Originally posted by HershOstropoler
                    "The folks there have been caught in battlefields (including shootouts in pakistani cities and elsewhere)"

                    How do you know that? Even the names are in part not documented.

                    Your right. Lets let AQ know exactly who we have in custody. that way, when one of their cells goes quiet, they wont have to guess who we've got. And they wont have to discontinue operations, or change locations out of fear of the info we'd collect. I appreciate your concern.
                    "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

                    Comment

                    • #220
                      Originally posted by HershOstropoler
                      "we're at war."

                      Fundamental error. The war only exists as a marketing ploy. I still wait for those rules being extended to the war on drugs and the war on obesity.

                      "
                      Fine. You have a different opinion and dont think its a war. thats a huge issue, and one i dont intend to debate here.

                      So you accept that starting with my belief that it IS a war, the rest of my position is correct?
                      "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

                      Comment

                      • #221
                        "but can you really think that is a "trivialization" such as comparing it to Auschwitz?"

                        Of course it's not. What is your problem? that I did not respond to techusomething? Simple, I think you have a genuine view worthy of debating it. I do not think that of techuguy.
                        “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

                        Comment

                        • #222
                          Originally posted by HershOstropoler
                          "but can you really think that is a "trivialization" such as comparing it to Auschwitz?"

                          Of course it's not. What is your problem? that I did not respond to techusomething? Simple, I think you have a genuine view worthy of debating it. I do not think that of techuguy.
                          He is not the only one with his opinion, it is not by any means the first time i have seen it. I think it is worth debating, and thats why I CHOSE to debate it. You need not debate it if you dont wish to, but i find it rude that you (apparently) attempt to divert me from that.
                          "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

                          Comment

                          • #223
                            Originally posted by HershOstropoler
                            "but can you really think that is a "trivialization" such as comparing it to Auschwitz?"

                            Of course it's not. What is your problem? that I did not respond to techusomething? Simple, I think you have a genuine view worthy of debating it. I do not think that of techuguy.
                            My problem is that you called what i did trivialazation, when i had just (more justifiably) called someone elses post trivialization. Standard rhetorical trope. Turn the accusation on the accuser, for shock value, and to divert the discussion. Call Israelis Nazis, etc. I just called you on it this time.
                            "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

                            Comment

                            • #224
                              "that way, when one of their cells goes quiet, they wont have to guess who we've got."

                              Oh please, you really think they can't figure that out?
                              “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

                              Comment

                              • #225
                                "My problem is that you called what i did trivialazation,"

                                I don't care about people who throw around the Nazi attribute generously. People like you who undermine fundamental rights by claiming wars, security needs etc and trivializing the first signs of the plague are much more dangerous.
                                “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

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