Holy ****! (Iraq) Helo shot down, up to 35 aboard, 20+ casualties

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola I though the C47 is a bit bulky and too much of a target to be fyling in contested areas,

The army now appears to have come to this judgment, no more C-47 operation in daylight in Iraq.

[HershOstropoler]

Originally posted by Pekka

But you know what I mean. I could think about general public outcry when the number of casualties is 20 000.
But everything under few thousand is the way business is done, and there's no hiding from it, and that it will always happen in the longer run. And this I see as weakness too.

Hmm... I think that despite all the propaganda, people know that this war is a farce, and that their relatives and friends are dying and killing for the idiocy of their leadership at best, and their corrupt agenda at worst. If this were a legitimate, defensive war against an aggressor, I think the American public would accept much, much higher losses.

[Pekka]

Defensive war, sure.. I mean a war fought in their own lands. WEll I don't know, maybe it's just Iraq that the public and media is somehow making it look like the casualties would be higher. I don't comment on the corrupt agenda thing.

[Arrian]

I think that there is a pretty good understanding here that we cannot afford to run away.

-Arrian

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by techumseh
It's so much simpler this way, isn't it MtG? No messy sifting through facts or contradictory arguments. Just a label. A tinfoil hat....or a yellow star.

In your case, I though wearing the tinfoil hat would be a badge of honor.

If this was the Third Reich reincarnated, with our firepower, and all we wanted was their oil, do you really think there'd be any of those mother****ers left alive to shoot at us?

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
hmmm, not quite Hitler but he's certainly managed to get the U.S. in a fine mess.

One thing abut the U.S. army - they seem to need to believe in what they are doing. It's a big weakness.

That's different from the British tradition armies which just do what they are told because they are professionals.

Worked so well in the Somme, Gallipoli and Market-Garden, didn't it?

In our view, "professionalism" includes individualist attributes such as small unit initiative and improvisation. Part and parcel of that package is individual questioning of the missions and the means available.

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat


In our view, "professionalism" includes individualist attributes such as small unit initiative and improvisation.

Something Australian rather than US forces are famous for

[techumseh]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat

In your case, I though wearing the tinfoil hat would be a badge of honor.

That so? You're quite the Mod, aren't you? Who moderates your big, insulting mouth?

If this was the Third Reich reincarnated, with our firepower, and all we wanted was their oil, do you really think there'd be any of those mother****ers left alive to shoot at us?

Global politics wasn't as simple as you seem to think even back in WWII. Even the Germans had to set up puppet governments in the countries they illegaly invaded and occupied. Armed resistance to illegal foreign aggression was justified then, and it's justified now.

[Kuciwalker]

That so? You're quite the Mod, aren't you? Who moderates your big, insulting mouth?

I'd watch it if I were you... how Agathon got away with insulting the mods I don't know, but I REALLY don't think it'll happen with MtG.

Global politics wasn't as simple as you seem to think even back in WWII. Even the Germans had to set up puppet governments in the countries they illegaly invaded and occupied. Armed resistance to illegal foreign aggression was justified then, and it's justified now.

Ah, that keyword illegal. The US military action was completely legal.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by techumseh


That so? You're quite the Mod, aren't you? Who moderates your big, insulting mouth?

I do. Apparently you haven't seen how insulting it can get, honey. If you want to post ignorant trolls, then you can expect to get responded to at a level appropriate to the troll. Actually, I was being nice, because for the US - Nazi Germany comparison, my initial inclination was to tell you to go **** yourself.

Instead, I applied "self-moderation" and posted smilies and the tinfoil hat pic in tribute to the utter ignorance of that comparison.

Global politics wasn't as simple as you seem to think even back in WWII. Even the Germans had to set up puppet governments in the countries they illegaly invaded and occupied. Armed resistance to illegal foreign aggression was justified then, and it's justified now.

The Nazis only set up "puppet" governments where it was convenient to them to do so. i.e. where they had a large pool of collaborators who could run a government. In other areas, the NSDAP maintained direct control through it's various appointed Gauleiters, who reported (in theory) to Reichsleiter Bormann, while the other lesser thugs (Goring and Himmler) maintained their personal fingers in the pie via the organizations and activities they controlled.

[Giancarlo]

The US and its respected coalition cannot pull out. To do so, will ensure disaster in Iraq. This attack is not the last. But it must be accepted that there will be further casualities. Pulling out is not an option and this attack does not justify that.

I express my deepest sorrows for the family of the fallen servicemen and to any service members who may have been affected by this.

[techumseh]

1. Having served for a while now as as a mod over at SL (which is admittedly MUCH tamer than OT), it's my considered opinion that a mod is there to step in if personal attacks get out of hand. How can someone fulfill that function if they are guilty themselves? If the mod insults, as a first resort, people who he disagrees with, what credibility does he then have asking others not to? And I don't think it's just me - this is also a marked departure from the usual practice of Ming, when he moderated OT.

2. My comparison of the current US regime and that of Nazi Germany is based on 4 things:

-military aggression and illegal (there's that word again) occupation of other countries

-attacks on the civil and human rights of their own people

-use of external and internal enemies to justify both military aggression and elimination of civil and human rights

-scapegoating and persecution of ethnic minorities, including the establishment of concentration camps.

3. When the Nazi's came to power, Germany was a democracy, and remained so, at least nominally, for some time. It took time and effort for the Nazi's to consolidate their power and eliminate the last vestiges of civil rights and democracy. In this, they were opposed by millions of Germans who could recognize that they were being lied to. In the end, the use of fear was the most effective tool of the Nazis. It convinced the majority to support giving up their own democratic rights and to make war on their neighbors.

4. I think that American democracy is robust enough to prevent history from repeating itself, not because Dubya and his crew are fundamentally different, but because the American people will stop him before it's too late.

[Giancarlo]

The US will NOT pull out of Iraq, not until the job is done.

And I see your signature... you buy into the excuses that the far left provides... I would love to hear some real reasons.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by techumseh
1. Having served for a while now as as a mod over at SL (which is admittedly MUCH tamer than OT), it's my considered opinion that a mod is there to step in if personal attacks get out of hand. How can someone fulfill that function if they are guilty themselves? If the mod insults, as a first resort, people who he disagrees with, what credibility does he then have asking others not to? And I don't think it's just me - this is also a marked departure from the usual practice of Ming, when he moderated OT.

Ming still mods OT. Apparently you haven't seen some of his colorful references to the intelligence of other posters or their posts. Part of my function is to make people long for Ming. Back when he was the "bad guy" people would whine to no end about a lot of moderating decisions, and he gave them slack to do so. Now people think of Ming as the epitomy of gentleness and reason. "Personal attacks getting out of hand" is a sibjective line. Nobody pretends (at least in OT) that this is a church school debate club, where everybody has to be nice and make sure nobody says anything that could offend anybody. People have a degree of freedom to say what's on their mind. They did before I started being an enforcer here, and they still do. My job isn't to make everybody play nice. It's to prevent raised voices at the bar from becoming a barroom brawl.

"Asking" and "credibility" are also not issues here. I don't care whether anyone thinks I have "credibility" or not, and I don't "ask" unless I'm in the mood to offer someone an opportunity to chill themselves out. Think in terms of "Ordering" and "authority to enforce orders" and then you're on the right track.

2. My comparison of the current US regime and that of Nazi Germany is based on 4 things:

-military aggression and illegal (there's that word again) occupation of other countries

The UN hasn't claimed that the US occupation of Iraq is illegal. Wrt Afghanistan and the Taleban, there's not much of an issue. The Taleban was not a recognized government, and they harbored an armed force who waged war against the United States.

Unlike a lot of kneejerk people on both sides, I think the legal issues regarding Iraq are a lot murkier, and I didn't initially support the war for a number of reasons. However, absent a ruling by a competent international authority that the US action was illegal, I'll take the position that it was, in that the invasion was merely a continuation of a state of hostilities that never terminated, due to Iraqi noncompliance with numerous UNSCRS over the last 13 years, plus Iraqi noncompliance with the terms of the cease fire granted by coalition forces in February, 1991.

None of this compares in the slightest with "lebensraum" and the wholesale campaign of conquest and annexation begun by the Nazis. If it did, do you think we'd really leave your gold, natural gas and hyrdoelectric resources alone, and that you wouldn't be up against a wall for your views?

-attacks on the civil and human rights of their own people

Yawn, I'm sure this is going to be all the mythical evils of the PATRIOT act, which is (for those who've actually bothered to read the actual bill, and compare it's changes to the established legal history) pretty tame. Gee, warrants to tap phones now apply to the criminal suspect and the phones he/she uses, instead of to a phone number, and anyone who happens to use that phone. And they still require showing of probable cause and authorization by a judge or magistrate.

-use of external and internal enemies to justify both military aggression and elimination of civil and human rights

Yes, we have SD and Gestapo agents going door to door, we have a "blood purity" act for who can work in what jobs, and labs busy making Zyklon-B.
In case you didn't hear about the collapse of those two big buildings in New York, a group of *******s decided to declare jihad against us. So we're fighting them back, and for whatever reason, Bush decided that dealing with the ******* Hussein regime was an appropriate continuation of that. Big deal. Given the history of both the Taleban and the Hussein regime, I'm sorry if I can't shed too many tears about their departure from power.

-scapegoating and persecution of ethnic minorities, including the establishment of concentration camps.

More tinfoil hat stuff. How about some actual real evidence, not the "there's a water district out in the desert in California with a big fence and they wouldn't let us see what was inside" website nonsense. I'm sure some enterprising Russian satellite operators, not to mention anyone flying a private aircraft, could provide us with aerial photos, GPS or UTM coordinates, and other hard data, but nooooooooooo.... Reality is sooooo not fun.

3. When the Nazi's came to power, Germany was a democracy, and remained so, at least nominally, for some time. It took time and effort for the Nazi's to consolidate their power and eliminate the last vestiges of civil rights and democracy. In this, they were opposed by millions of Germans who could recognize that they were being lied to. In the end, the use of fear was the most effective tool of the Nazis. It convinced the majority to support giving up their own democratic rights and to make war on their neighbors.

The Nazis were never actively opposed by "millions" of Germans - they would never have had a chance to establish themselves. It also whitewashes the complicity of millions of ordinary Germans who had no real problem with things as long as they were personally benefitting and the costs were minimal and abstract.

4. I think that American democracy is robust enough to prevent history from repeating itself, not because Dubya and his crew are fundamentally different, but because the American people will stop him before it's too late.

I personally can't stand Dubya, or Ashcroft, and ask LotM or others about my characterizations of Remmy, Wolfie, et al. But comparing them to the likes of Hitler, Bormann, Goring, Himmler, Goebbels, and lesser scum such as Heydrich and Kaltenbrunner is beyond absurd.

[Giancarlo]

Any comparsion of Bush to any dictator is not only absurd, but plain idiotic. I am sorry but I ask people who make such inferences this question: "Did you get dropped on your head when you were little?"