Bye bye IDS?

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Snotty
Theres a fence near the labour club in my old home town. It still has 'Poll tax. Cant pay, wont pay' graffitied on it. Everyone I have mentioned it to has gone cold on Howard. People can sometimes have really long memorys.

Yes. The Poll Tax!

The day when my family had our bills quadruple from the old rates system for the privilege of living in a two bedroom flat...



Interestingly I was at a LibDem/Tory debate today (Labour chickened out! ), the Tories had this interesting mantra...

Whenever criticism occurred over Thatcherism etc, they would say "But we are not like that anymore!" and would wax lyrical about their 'fantastic new policies' on health and education...

And I grant, they are pretty exciting and forward thinking for Tory policies, though they are still crap and frankly smacking of desperation...

The thing is that these policies were developed under IDS' leadership - who they got rid of for one of Thatcher's 'bright young things'!

Does this change of leadership not strike one as ironic in view of their claims...


"Cooooeeee! Tory Boy - where are you?"

[*End Is Forever*]

MOBIUS,

Where is Tory Boy anyway?

Unlike some others, I have some semblance of a life. On Wednesday I was in Middlesbrough playing BUSA Sport (followed by curry when I got back to York) and yesterday I was in Newcastle for NUS Regional Conference (okay, take back that bit about having a life, although I did get pissed and launch fireworks that evening).

Snotty,

No vote, no choice? No democracy. So much for the new system of the membership voting for the leader.

You can't fabricate a contest where there isn't one. Significant consultation with members is taking place this weekend. As a member of the Conservative Party National Convention I have spoken over the last couple of days to a huge number of Conservative Future members in my area and not a single one has suggested that they want a vote. This is the case up and down the country; there are better ways to spend £250,000 than on a non-competitive vote!

MOBIUS,

I'm intrigued that you can offer nothing more than insults and childishness on the subject. We're obviously heading in the right direction...

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

By taking as leader the author of Section 28?

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by *End Is Forever*
MOBIUS,

Unlike some others, I have some semblance of a life. On Wednesday I was in Middlesbrough playing BUSA Sport (followed by curry when I got back to York) and yesterday I was in Newcastle for NUS Regional Conference (okay, take back that bit about having a life, although I did get pissed and launch fireworks that evening).

OK, I'll grant you the bit about not having time...

But you still haven't answered a whole bunch of valid points and questions.

You can't fabricate a contest where there isn't one. Significant consultation with members is taking place this weekend. As a member of the Conservative Party National Convention I have spoken over the last couple of days to a huge number of Conservative Future members in my area and not a single one has suggested that they want a vote. This is the case up and down the country; there are better ways to spend £250,000 than on a non-competitive vote!

I bet there would be one if it wasn't for the fact that the MPs no longer have ultimate control over who would become leader...

Tell me, in all the times there has been a change of leadership - how often has someone been 'elected' (made leader by default) without a contest?

Strikes me as odd that this has happened now that the grassroots have a say in the voting process...

Guess the MPs don't want another IDS...

I'm intrigued that you can offer nothing more than insults and childishness on the subject. We're obviously heading in the right direction...

Actually I can offer a whole bunch of valid and reasonable questions, none of which you have seen fit to answer in a satisfactory manner...

As for insults, I think you resorted to those before I even entered this thread. I apologise if my feelings run strongly vis a vis Howard - but I still have a deeply ingrained hatred for him as a result of having to directly endure his policies during the Thatcher years! You have no idea what the Poll Tax was like to millions of people up and down the country do you?

So are you gonna answer these questions like a man - or are you going to do a Howard

Newsnight presenter Jeremy Paxman grills Howard asking him the same question 14 times.
In a preleadership election interview Jeremy Paxman asks Mr Howard about the sacking of prisons chief Derek Lewis in 1995 following the Parkhurst escape Everthorpe riot and Fred West's suicide. Paxman asks "Did you threaten to overrule him"14 times and each time Mr Howard evades the question.

I can't even be bothered counting the number of valid and reasonable points and questions by a number of people in this thread you have so far failed to answer - but I'm sure it is rapidly reaching double figures...

Answer the points and questions!

[MOBIUS]

Is it true that Howard came last out of a field of five for the leadership race in 1997?

You can see why he would need to be elected uncontested!

Is it also true that only last year he said he wouldn't be running for the leadership at all?

So why is he leader now? Maybe that was before he realised he would be a shoe-in

[*End Is Forever*]

I still fail to see why the fact that the Parliamentary Party is united behind a single candidate is a bad thing...?

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

You don't smell a rat?

All those senior tories, loyally behind IDS. Then, minutes after the vote, they're suddenly united behind Howard?

[*End Is Forever*]

Michael Howard was the obvious candidate; by coincidence, our York Tory meetings are at 7pm on Wednesdays, so we were able to have a frank discussion about the future of the Party in the immediate aftermath of the result (and without knowledge of the announcements from David Davis et al that followed the ballot). The overwhelming majority even at that point backed Howard.

I can see why you're pushing this argument though; people like yourself and MOBIUS are never going to support the Conservatives, united or otherwise...

[MOBIUS]

It smells like a fix.

The MPs knew that the ultimate say of who was going to be Tory leader would have ended up in the hands of the grassroots - that is how IDS got elected...

I think they did not want to see another IDS type leader elected outside of their control.

Like I asked before:

Tell me, in all the times in the history of the Conservative Party where there has been a change of leadership - how often has someone been 'elected' (made leader by default) without a contest?

I am genuinely curious.

Oh, BTW the first casualty of Howard becoming leader has occurred

Tell me, is that bad news?

[*End Is Forever*]

Oh, BTW the first casualty of Howard becoming leader has occurred

What has that (Portillo is standing down, for those that can't be bothered to click the link) got to do with Michael Howard? Portillo was a dead cert for a senior shadow cabinet post had he wanted it... so it's not as if he's been forced out.

[*End Is Forever*]

Tell me, in all the times in the history of the Conservative Party where there has been a change of leadership - how often has someone been 'elected' (made leader by default) without a contest?

In the distant past... regularly. Hopefully, Howard's election marks the end of the factional infighting within Conservative leadership elections that has marked recent contests.

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by *End Is Forever*
What has that (Portillo is standing down, for those that can't be bothered to click the link) got to do with Michael Howard? Portillo was a dead cert for a senior shadow cabinet post had he wanted it... so it's not as if he's been forced out.

Well we all know that Howard and Portillo didn't see eye to eye on homosexuality laws for a start - seems like he finally gave up. You should be proud of him really, by leaving he will make your party more stable (and right-wing)...

I can see why you're pushing this argument though; people like yourself and MOBIUS are never going to support the Conservatives, united or otherwise...

We're pushing it because 'Something is rotten in Denmark' as Hamlet would say - and the other stuff too...

Oh and answer the other questions as well +1

[*End Is Forever*]

MOBIUS,

Well we all know that Howard and Portillo didn't see eye to eye on homosexuality laws for a start...

Well, they seem to be getting on rather better than Blair and Brown right now... To be honest, if you are trying to link Portillo's decision to step down to Howard's leadership, you're gripping rather too tightly on the straw...

Oh and answer the other questions as well

I've answered the overwhelming majority of the points; I don't have unlimited time, and as you may have noticed the balance of debate in this thread is somewhat lop-sided.

If there's a specific point or points that I may have missed that you'd like to bring up, feel free...

[Snotty]

You can't fabricate a contest where there isn't one. Significant consultation with members is taking place this weekend. As a member of the Conservative Party National Convention I have spoken over the last couple of days to a huge number of Conservative Future members in my area and not a single one has suggested that they want a vote. This is the case up and down the country; there are better ways to spend £250,000 than on a non-competitive vote!

Subdueing the competition is different than there being no competition. No one wants to be branded 'un-united'. All the members that are being consulted, and all the members that you have spoken to are going to be the most active in the party. If they did feel any disquiet with howard, then they would be highly unlikely to put their head above the parapet, and they would feel the ostricization most keenly if they were branded. An anonymous vote would give them the freedom to truly express how they felt, and thats why you arent having one. The vote would be seen as a vote of confidence with howard and could be the death knell for his career before it started.

On the other hand, a huge positive vote would give the party a great boost but it doesnt really need it right now. As you say, the large sums of money involved would be reason enough for not having one, especially with the fear it could go the wrong way.

Out of curiousity did the torys get to vote on which MEPs they wanted to represent them?

As for lop-sided, I think youre doing a cracking job of it. Do you know any tory leaning boards where I could get a good workout?

[*End Is Forever*]

Snotty,

Subdueing the competition is different than there being no competition. No one wants to be branded 'un-united'.

The hypocrisy is astounding. A matter of mere weeks ago, people like yourself would have been saying that the Conservatives were incapable of uniting, and that they were unworthy for government because they were too busy fighting each other. Look at the press release sent out by the Vice-Chairmen of Liberal Democrat Youth and Students to the Student Press...

What is clear is that the Conservatives are a party that just cannot be led. Margaret Thatcher, John Major, William Hague, and now Iain Duncan Smith. If the Conservatives put as much energy into tackling the government over the issues that matter to students as it does to internal wrangling perhaps plans for Tuition Fees and Top Up Fees could have been stopped in their tracks

...and yet now you are criticising us for the exact opposite! Make your mind up...

All the members that are being consulted, and all the members that you have spoken to are going to be the most active in the party. If they did feel any disquiet with howard, then they would be highly unlikely to put their head above the parapet, and they would feel the ostricization most keenly if they were branded.

Again, how does this square with the constantly-portrayed image of the Conservatives by people like yourself as disunited public squabblers? Which is it going to be?

An anonymous vote would give them the freedom to truly express how they felt, and thats why you arent having one

We aren't having one because it isn't necessary, and there are much better ways to spend a quarter of a million pounds.

The vote would be seen as a vote of confidence with howard and could be the death knell for his career before it started

For what it's worth we organised a quick poll of our members here at the York Tories (hardly a bastion of blue-rinsers anyway, as anyone who has discussed politics in any depth with me will be able to confirm!) and after just over a third of the ballots have been returned there has been one solitary vote against Howard - an approval rate of over 95% is hardly dreadful...

Out of curiousity did the torys get to vote on which MEPs they wanted to represent them?

Short answer, yes.

The selection process for Conservative MEPs under the party list system is that a series of selection meetings are held in each region; every member in the region is entitled to attend and vote.