Do you think the allies have any blood on their hands for Heroshima and Nagasaki ...

[David Floyd]

According to many here, this was a minority position in the government. MtG, DF, and others have argued, persuasvively IMO, that the more fanatical elements of the Japanese government would have mounted a coup had the government tried to surrender.

That's quite true, but I still think the atomic bombings were morally appalling and obviously wrong.

[NeOmega]

Originally posted by David Floyd
That's quite true, but I still think the atomic bombings were morally appalling and obviously wrong.

No, obvious about it. If your country is attacked by another country, and your people are killed by another people, there is only one resort: Total War. The Japanese people remind me of the peopel of America today... whipped up into a blood frenzy, and feelings of invulnerability. I would hate to die for this frenzy, but if our enemies found a way to stop us, I cannot say that any tactic they chose would be despicable. Such is the risk you take when you begin an aggressive war.

[Ned]

David, there is nothing to suggest in anything I read about Truman's reasons for using the bomb was to forstall a coup by radical elements of the Army. I am not so interested in knowing about the secret plans for a coup in Japan than I am in knowing whether we knew about such a possibility of a coup unless we used the bomb. On its face, the Japanese government was offering a conditional surrender on the basis of retaining the Emperor. We eventually accepted their offer. The dropping of the bombs did not change the position of the Emperor so much as it changed the position of Truman.

[Ned]

And, IIRC, one of the conditions the Japanase wanted prior to bombs was no occupation of Japan. I believe this condition was dropped after the bombs fell.

[Mr. Harley]

It's interesting reading these posts, as usual most of the historical points are correct. A couple of items got left out. It puts the interptations in an interesting light.

1) (missing fact - from Grolier.com) At the Casablanca Conference in January 1943, Roosevelt and Churchill--most probably to allay Joseph STALIN's suspicions of the loyalty of his allies--proclaimed a policy of unconditional surrender for Germany, Italy, and Japan as the only means of maintaining the peace.

2) Soviets foward offer for conditional surrender - see (1) above.

3) Announcements we will only permit unconditional surrender to US (and UK) public. See (1) above.

4-6) Dropping A-bombs and Russian invasion of Manchuria. The arguments over which pushed the Japanese over to surrender will go on as long as we have historians. The consensus is that they all contributed, and as our one poster made the point, the second bomb might not have been dropped except for weather, assuming Japan would have surrendered after Hiroshima and the Soviet invastion. Note, though, they still hadn't at the point Nagasaki was bombed. Would they have done so in two more days? We will never know.

Actual Text of the Japanese surrender

I N S T R U M E N T O F S U R R E N D E R


We, acting by command of and in behalf of the Emperor of
Japan, the Japanese Government and the Japanese Imperial General
Headquarters, hereby accept the provisions set forth in the
declaration issued by the heads of the Governments of the United
States, China, and Great Britain on 26 July 1945 at Potsdam, and
subsequently adhered to by the Union of Soviet Socialist Repub-
lics, which four powers are hereafter referred to as the Allied
Powers.

We hereby proclaim the unconditional surrender to the Allied
Powers of the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters and of all
Japanese armed forces and all armed forces under the Japanese
control wherever situated.

We hereby command all Japanese forces wherever situated and
the Japanese people to cease hostilites forthwith, to preserve
and save from damage all ships, aircraft, and military and civil
property and to comply with all requirements which my be imposed
by the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers or by agencies of
the Japanese Government at his direction.

We hereby command the Japanese Imperial Headquarters to issue
at once orders to the Commanders of all Japanese forces and all
forces under Japanese control wherever situated to surrender un-
conditionally themselves and all forces under their control.

We hereby command all civil, military and naval officials to
obey and enforce all proclamations, and orders and directives deemed
by the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers to be proper to ef-
fectuate this surrender and issued by him or under his authority
and we direct all such officials to remain at their posts and to
continue to perform their non-combatant duties unless specifically
relieved by him or under his authority.

We hereby undertake for the Emperor, the Japanese Government
and their successors to carry out the provisions of the Potsdam
Declaration in good faith, and to issue whatever orders and take
whatever actions may be required by the Supreme Commander for the
Allied Poers or by any other designated representative of the
Allied Powers for the purpose of giving effect to that Declaration.

We hereby command the Japanese Imperial Government and the
Japanese Imperial General Headquarters at once to liberate all
allied prisoners of war and civilian internees now under Japanese
control and to provide for their protection, care, maintenance and
immediate transportation to places as directed.

The authority of the Emperor and the Japanese Government to
rule the state shall be subject to the Supreme Commander for the
Allied Powers who will take such steps as he deems proper to ef-
fectuate these terms of surrender.

Signed at TOKYO BAY, JAPAN at 0904 I
on the SECOND day of SEPTEMBER, 1945

As best as I can read, that's an unconditional surrender. There were quid-pro-quos (as in leaving the Emperor alone and not charging him with war crimes, which could be an entire new topic), which the US Occupying authorities could have ignored at any time. General MacArthur, not my favorite historical figure, understood what would be involved in occupying Japan and turning her into an ally. I'll let the historical record speak for itself. I wish multiple countries involved in conflicts and occupying other people's countries at this time would appoint people as knowledgable as MacArthur. Not that he was perfect by any stretch, but as the head of a foreign, culturally different occupation force he definitely did better than the majority of other examples we have.

So, to recap from mutiple posts and history.

Did we have to drop the bombs? No.
Did it prevent more US causulties, probably in the thousands if not tens of thousands. High probabilty
Did Truman have the estimates of casualties. Yes, though the numbers are argued over.
Would Japanese civilian casualties have been higher, due to starvation (see my sign at the end of the post) and/or invasion. High probability.
Was it a BAD (best available data) decision made by Truman given the context above. Subject to discussion, but I will argue yes given the context.

If you want to argue morality, the allies, and WW2, argue Dresden. Now that could get messy

[NeOmega]

This is one of the few topics where I will bust out the American Flag and start singing the Star Spangled Banner...

[Elden]

The US, not the others who did not use nukes on civilian targets.

P.S. Japan had already surrendered, the US administration bombed them anyway because they were vengeful arses.

[Giovanni Wine]

IMHO Every country in such a total war everyone have some blood on its hand.

Some more, some less, but noone have managed to get out of WW2 "clean".

Saluti

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly


Two or three people have said this so far, and I have a question: is there no hierarchy of casualties in a war?

Leaving aside the question of whether the numbers are right, the "millions of people" killed in an invasion would have been, overwhelmingly, soldiers; the hundreds of thousands killed by the bombs were civilians. In wartime, are these really equivalent lives?

IIRC there were substantial civilian casualties at Okinawa. There were also horrific civilian casualties in when the allies liberated Manila from the Japanese. Given that the Japanese would be fighting in cities, and that the Japanese were mobilizing the entire population, there was every reason to expect massive CIVILIAN casualties from an invasion. Not to mention casualties from starvation, etc as the blockade continued and the japanese internal food distritbution system collapsed.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Leaving aside the question of whether the numbers are right, the "millions of people" killed in an invasion would have been, overwhelmingly, soldiers; the hundreds of thousands killed by the bombs were civilians. In wartime, are these really equivalent lives?

In a total war like WW2, yes, I think they are equivalent.

[NeOmega]

To me every life is valuable.... from child to soldier.

[Jaguar]

Originally posted by Elden
The US, not the others who did not use nukes on civilian targets.

P.S. Japan had already surrendered, the US administration bombed them anyway because they were vengeful arses.

Hiroshima was bombed August 6th. Nagasaki was bombed August 9th. Japan surrendured August 10th:

(Department of State Bulletin, Vol. XIII, No. 320, Aug. 12, 1945)

August 10, 1945

Sir; I have the honor to inform you that the Japanese Minister in Switzerland, upon instructions received from his Government, has requested the Swiss Political Department to advise the Government of the United States of America of the following:

"In obedience to the gracious command of His Majesty the Emperor who, ever anxious to enhance the cause of world peace, desires earnestly to bring about a speedy termination of hostilities with a view to saving mankind from the calamities to be imposed upon them by further continuation of the war, the Japanese Government several weeks ago asked the Soviet Government, with which neutral relations then prevailed, to render good offices in restoring peace vis a vis the enemy powers. Unfortunately, these efforts in the interest of peace having failed, the Japanese Government in conformity with the august wish of His Majesty to restore the general peace and desiring to put an end to the untold sufferings entailed by war as quickly as possible, have decided upon the following.

"The Japanese Government are ready to accept the terms enumerated in the joint declaration which was issued at Potsdam on July 26th, 1945, by the heads of the Governments of the United States, Great Britain, and China, and later subscribed to by the Soviet Government, with the understanding that the said declaration does not comprise any demand which prejudices the prerogatives of His Majesty as a Sovereign Ruler.

"The Japanese Government sincerely hope that this understanding is warranted and desire keenly that an explicit indication to that effect will be speedily forthcoming."

In transmitting the above message the Japanese Minister added that his Government begs the Government of the United States to forward its answer through the intermediary of Switzerland. Similar requests are being transmitted to the Governments of Great Britain and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics through the intermediary of Sweden, as well as to the Government of China through the intermediary of Switzerland. The Chinese Minister at Berne has already been informed of the foregoing through the channel of the Swiss Political Department.

Please be assured that I am at your disposal at any time to accept for and forward to my Government the reply of Government of the United States.

Accept (etc.)

Grassli,

Charge d'Affaires ad interim of Switzerland

The Honorable James F. Byrnes

This is what we sent back the next day:

Secretary of State August 11, 1945

Sir: I have the honor to acknowledge receipt of your note of August 10, and in reply to inform you that the President of the United States has directed me to send you for transmission to the Japanese Government the following message on behalf of the Governments of the United States, the United Kingdom, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, and China:

"With regard to the Japanese Government's message accepting the terms of the Potsdam proclamation but containing the statement, 'with the understanding that the said declaration does not comprise any demand which prejudices the prerogatives of His Majesty as a sovereign ruler,' our position is as follows:

"From the moment of surrender the authority of the Emperor and the Japanese Government to rule the state shall be subject to the Supreme Commander of the Allied powers who will take such steps as he deems proper to effectuate the surrender terms.

"The Emperor will be required to authorize and ensure the signature by the Government of Japan and the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters of the surrender terms necessary to carry out the provisions of the Potsdam Declaration, and shall issue his commands to all the Japanese military, naval and air authorities and to all the forces under their control wherever located to cease active operations and to surrender their arms, and to issue such other orders as the Supreme Commander may require to give effect to the surrender terms.

"Immediately upon the surrender the Japanese Government shall transport prisoners of war and civilian internees to places of safety, as directed, where they can quickly be placed aboard Allied transports.

"The ultimate form of government of Japan shall, in accordance with the Potsdam Declaration, be established by the freely expressed will of the Japanese people.

"The armed forces of the Allied Powers will remain in Japan until the purposes set forth in the Potsdam Declaration are achieved."

Accept (etc.) James F. Byrnes Secretary of State

Mr. Max Grassli

Charge d'Affaires ad interim of Switzerland

Sorry if the truth does not conform to your world view.

[Berzerker]

"In obedience to the gracious command of His Majesty the Emperor who, ever anxious to enhance the cause of world peace, desires earnestly to bring about a speedy termination of hostilities with a view to saving mankind from the calamities to be imposed upon them by further continuation of the war

Yeah, his majesty loves peace.

[Jaguar]

Originally posted by Berzerker


Yeah, his majesty loves peace.

I thought that was kind of funny too.

[Imran Siddiqui]

with the understanding that the said declaration does not comprise any demand which prejudices the prerogatives of His Majesty as a Sovereign Ruler.

I can SOOOOO understand why we wanted unconditional surrender. The Emperor is still Sovereign Ruler? That'd be like if Hitler didn't kill himself to leave him as President of West Germany!