Bush Unveils Measures to Weaken Cuba's Castro

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
Castro sucks goats.

Castro's a chupacabra?

[JCG]

Castro's not as bad as the extreme rightwing pretends, but likewise not as good as the extreme leftwingers think...

So, if there can't be any sort of "free elections" due to possible US involvement, then it's better to let one guy and his top aides/family in power for 40+ years, crushing all attempts at reform because they might be (and in some, but not all cases, are) "US plants", and allow all this just because the government is reasonably popular/has done good stuff?

Well, plenty of other monarchs/dictators around the world think/thought likewise, why not let them do the same? Why should any of them hold elections at all? If the people seem to be "happy" with them, everything's "OK".

[carnide_]

What was that movie name about the White House?
Wag the dog?
The point here is: If you (the White House) face a no-problem solution, you try to the best you can to divert attentions to another thing: The Castro afair!
- - -
I wonder why I have this feeling: "The bigest problem to the US is the Bush administration...."

[Kuciwalker]

face a no-problem solution

You mean a no-solution problem, right?

[Agathon]

Originally posted by skywalker

Yeah, Fidel is just the greatest example of benevolent, effective, democratic government, isn't he

Compare Cuba to the Caribbean nations that the US has had a hand in. Do you really think Cubans want their children to be stitching baseballs for 10 cents a day rather than going to school?

We already know what a US dominated Cuba would be like - Batista. Very few Cubans want to return to that state of affairs.

The best thing to do would be for the US to get rid of the ridiculous embargo. Cuba is no threat to anyone and both countries would benefit. If you removed the threat of a hostile superpower I think you would find that Cuba would become a more liberal place quite quickly.

[Kuciwalker]

*remembers (not literally) 1962*

Yep, they sure love us, don't they. They'll just be nice and happy.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by JCG
Castro's not as bad as the extreme rightwing pretends, but likewise not as good as the extreme leftwingers think...

So, if there can't be any sort of "free elections" due to possible US involvement, then it's better to let one guy and his top aides/family in power for 40+ years, crushing all attempts at reform because they might be (and in some, but not all cases, are) "US plants", and allow all this just because the government is reasonably popular/has done good stuff?

Well, plenty of other monarchs/dictators around the world think/thought likewise, why not let them do the same? Why should any of them hold elections at all? If the people seem to be "happy" with them, everything's "OK".

Well, if the US stops hassling him Castro would have no reason to be so paranoid and his record would surely improve.

There are millions of street children in the world - not one of them is Cuban.

[Kuciwalker]

There are millions of street children in the world - not one of them is Cuban.

Yup, life in Cuba is such a wonderful thing. That's why none of THEM come to live over HERE, isn't it?

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
Only if you can prove that removal of Fidel Castro will usher in real democracy, not some US-propped fakery.

I don't have to. Castro's own actions speak louder than I ever could.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by skywalker

There are millions of street children in the world - not one of them is Cuban.

Yup, life in Cuba is such a wonderful thing. That's why none of THEM come to live over HERE, isn't it?

This is completely irrelevant. More Mexicans, Haitians and other assorted folks attempt to sneak into the US than Cubans.

Of course. The US is a far richer country than Cuba; isn't subject to a crippling embargo; etc.

You need to learn your history. If you understood the perfidy of your country when it comes to the Caribbean and Latin America, you might realise why the majority of Cubans prefer Fidel.

[Kuciwalker]

Actually, regardless of what we've done, the majority of Cubans prefer Fidel because they've been TOLD so since they were born and haven't heard anything else.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Agathon
There are millions of street children in the world - not one of them is Cuban.

Thier sugar industry is near collapse. Last year half of thier sugar mills were shut down leaving about 100k workers jobless. The tourist industry is also in a slump as a result of 9/11. The creeping dollarization of the island has made survival on a salary paid in local currency almost impossible. Hospitals are decrepit. Basic medicine is only available in foreigner only pharmacies and schools only serve to indoctrinate rather than teach.

[Agathon]

Let's look at Castro's crimes. This is from a "Free Cuba" website (newspeak if ever it existed).

Fidel Castro's regime is guilty of numerous documentable crimes stretching from the jungles of Peru to the deserts of Ethiopia. Documented reports exist of Cuban troops in cahoots with the Ethiopian government denying food to starving Ethiopians because of their political ideology. In Latin America, Castro funded guerrilla groups throughout the hemisphere generating terror and fear for decades.

An unproven report that Cubans did horrible things in Ethiopia aside, this is completely laughable. To be sure Cuba has supported revolutionary guerilla movements in Latin America. The point of these movements is to overthrow repressive US dominated regimes which impoverish their citizens.

Of course put this besides the US record of sponsoring murder and terror in Latin America (Nicaragua, Guatemala, etc.) and Fidel looks like a saint.

At home Castro's regime has created the most repressive police state apparatus in the Western Hemisphere. Cuba is an Orwellian nightmare set in the tropics with Big Brother sporting a beard and cigar.

But the vast majority of Cubans genuinely love the guy. You can go there and see for yourself.

Cuba has refused to ratify any major international law enshrining fundamental human rights. It has refused to sign the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights.

What? Shock horror! Cuba refuses to sign international treaties! Need I remind you of the country that is absolutely worst in this respect.

Castro formed Committees for the Defense of the Revolution(CDR) which operate on almost every block in Cuba. Spying on neighbors and reporting back to the regime. Negative reports can land one in jail.

This is a deliberate misrepresentation of the CDR.

Talking to foreigners invites questioning into your loyalty to the regime.

Large numbers of individuals are incarcerated in Castro's prisons for political crimes ranging from speaking against the regime to trying to leave the island.

Says the country that imprisons people without trial, imprisons them for petty offences like drug use; and has by far the highest rate of imprisonment in the Western world.

There is more stuff after this, but no proof.

Castro's achievements bear mentioning and we shall list them here. First, his regime has had the longest serving political prisoner in world history: over 28 years.

Presumably this guy was working for the enemy.

Cuba, in 1959 was economically self sufficient, and did not have the tourist-Apartheid of today.

In 1959 Cuba was run by a criminal in cahoots with the US.

Tourist-Apartheid is the situation in which Cuban citizens don't have equal access to certain beaches or restaurants that Tourists do. Reminiscent of the system of segregation of the South, or of Apartheid in South Africa these conditions have been labeled "tourist apartheid."

Is this any different from the fact that I can't go to certain beaches because they are privately owned?

In forty years Fidel Castro took an island with pre-existing progressive healthcare and drove it into the ground. In 1959 Cuba had 337 hospitals in 1989 the number had decreased to 264. Increases in other areas of Cuban healthcare did not manifest themselves on a per capita basis. Disease in Cuba has steadily increased since 1959. Suicides in Cuba more than doubled from a 1,011 figure for 1970 to 2,220 in 1989.

Cuba has one of the best healthcare systems compared to most nations (it's one of the things that has worked well). For example, it is widely known that Cubans have the best teeth of anyone. It's also a fact that US companies have been itching to employ Cuban medical researchers because they provide excellent research at a limited cost (again, another reason why dumping the embargo would be good for both sides).

Where are the Stalinist massacres? Where are the purges? Where is there anything more than Fidel jailing people whose agenda is to return Cuba to another Batista like dictatorship?

[Agathon]

Originally posted by skywalker
Actually, regardless of what we've done, the majority of Cubans prefer Fidel because they've been TOLD so since they were born and haven't heard anything else.

They aren't that stupid.

[Ned]

In the words of George Bush, "Cuba shall soon be free!"