The Apolyton Science Fiction Discussion Group: The Dune Chronicles

[Q Classic]

Ix rules. I love Ix. And for some strange reason, i also really like the Tleilaxu, in a way.

One thing I really liked about how herbert I wrote about the bene tleilax is how he described everyone's visceral abhorrence of their kind--a phrase here, a line there, all small drops of the hatred that most seemed to bear for the "dirty tleilaxu". he was never really blatant about it--and if we read his personality into it, we might imagine that herbert I was against genetic enegineering--which is one reason why i don't like herbert II's books. there's no finesse in these new ones. it's blunt.
i liked the mystery of there not being any women tleilaxu. the mystery of what the axoltl tanks really were. the holiness and religion built around "god's language".

i also appreciate how herbert I balanced the mechanical geniuses of Ix against the genetic wizards of Tleilax. the Ixians didn't seem to have a religious zeal around them. they weren't despised--rather, they seemed to be merely tolerated, with a galactic don't ask, don't tell policy as to what the Ixians really put into those amazing technical boxes of theirs. i even liked the bit of humor they threw in, about the name being so old that they didn't know whether it referred to Ix being planet #9, or something else; we all know techies like saying the acronyms, too: SCO == "skoh", IEEE == "aiyee"...
and because the Ixians are technogeeks, one wonders why herbert II and anderson decided to add in a biological subclass in their bastards. why wouldn't the Ixians use robots? why wouldn't they automate as much as possible, especially if their world is largely underground.
and if we want to read herberts personality here, too, we can probably surmise that he wasn't a great fan of the breakneck pace of technology, but admits that we can't live without it.

[Jac de Molay]

Those abortions co-written by Herbert’s son and Brian Anderson are not up for discussion here – unless the discussion is a one-sided denunciation of their hacking and pillaging of the Dune tradition and their complete lack of awareness regarding the source material.

The thing that really pisses me off is that they kept Dr Willis Mcnelly's reference work, The Encyclopedia of Dune out of print so they put out their own reference work, The Dune Concordance.

I have been absolutely obsessed with finding this book because it's an excellent reference work that had Herbert Sr.'s seal of approval.

. I can say definitively that the movie with Kyle McKlocklin(sp) was terrible compared to the book and I can see why my friends despised it.

Visually, I thought the movie was perfect. But, you're right, they muddled the books plot and themes so badly as to render it incomprehensible.

[Q Classic]

is the kyle movie the one directed by david lynch? or the sci-fi one?

the david lynch one was a travesty.

[JohnT]

The sci-fi one was the travesty, Q, trust me. Lynch's movie, while boring as hell to someone who hasn't read the books before (and to many who have), at least got the feel and look of Herbert's Dune, whereas the science fiction channels just kept the name and the characters and the barest outlines of the plot.

I mean, I'm watching it and I'm like "was this written by Anderson/Herbert Jr?"

[JohnT]

Originally posted by Jac de Molay


The thing that really pisses me off is that they kept Dr Willis Mcnelly's reference work, The Encyclopedia of Dune out of print so they put out their own reference work, The Dune Concordance.

If that is true that is a travesty. That was a freakin' awesome book, and should've been the blueprint used by Anderson/Jr.

[Jac de Molay]

The motion picture Dune was directed by Lynch, and starred McLaqlin, Sean Young , Sting, and the guy from Das Boot. Soundtrack by Toto. .

A visually superb movie, IMHO. But anyone that didn't read the book would have no clue what's going on.

[Q Classic]

it got the look of dune, but butchered everything else.
wierding modules? wierding modules? wtf? let's not forget the ornithopters that look like cardboard boxes with their flaps out.

i didn't much care for the sci-fi one, but i think it's at least a bit more faithful to the story.

in any case, dune is a damn hard book to get into a movie. most epic/messianic stories are hard to get into a good movie--looking at all the bad adaptations of the bible or about ww2, etc more than proves that.

[Q Classic]

oh, the lynch movie also has patrick stewart as gurney halleck, iirc.

[Drake Tungsten]

wierding modules? wierding modules? wtf?

He's got a point here. The weirding modules were hella gay.

oh, the lynch movie also has patrick stewart as gurney halleck, iirc.

What horrible casting. Halleck was supposed to be an ugly hulk of a man, not some poncey, Shakespearean-theater type.

[Jac de Molay]

Originally posted by JohnT
If that is true that is a travesty. That was a freakin' awesome book, and should've been the blueprint used by Anderson/Jr.

Well, maybe that's hyperbole. But the last time I checked the Concordance website, they were making it abundantly clear that the Encyclopedia was not an official representation of the Dune universe. Which is bull**** because McNelly is the most reputable science fiction scholar out there, and consulted with Herbert frequently when writing his reference work.

I've been so crazy to find this book I still have dreams about it. I've been combing bookstores in Detroit and Ann Arbor but no luck, and the prices on EBay are getting ridiculous.

[Harry Seldon]

I've never heard of the Encyclodepia. Do you have a name I can look for when I'm in the used bookstore?

[Jac de Molay]

Well, it's basically called the Dune Encyclopedia, by Dr. Willis E. McNelly. The last time I checked, there was 100,000+ copies sold, then it went out of print. Good luck finding it , because any knowledgable used dealer is not going to part with it.

Here's a decent site with art and excerpts.

[Harry Seldon]

Well, I'll keep my fingers crossed for a romance lover behind the desk. We have several small and used bookstores around here and I've found some real gems hidden among the shelves.

[JohnT]

Bumpity - c'mon people, this is a CLASSIC. Where are Ming, Rah, and the other supposed sci-fi buffs? Not commenting on Perdido Street Station is one thing, but not commenting on Dune?

Anyway, another thing that I liked about the series is how Herbert used both the passage of time and new characters to destroy the cherished assumptions of previous protagonists. In Dune he built the world and the mythology of Paul Atreides, the prescient leader of fanatical fighting men conditioned exquisitely to believe in the rightness of their Maud'dib. In Dune Messiah Herbert started attacking Maud'dib from within and without, from Pauls inner torment at what he unleashed to the stoneburner attack. This process was completed in Children of Dune, where Leto II is pressed to finish destroying the mythology of Maud'dib in order to save interstellar civilization from the collapse of the spice trade brought about by the successful terraforming of Arrakis.

Leto II ends CoD building up his own mythology at the expense of his fathers by using the sandworms to change his body into a form that will last for over 3,500 years - long past the time when all sandworms will be extinct. He does this so that he can use his prescience to guide mankind safely around the upcoming Armageddon (Kralizek? Typhoon war of some sort) that he foresees in mankinds future if the spice isn't preserved by means of force and religion.

God: Emperor begins the deconstruction of Leto: II. Tired, old, agelessly cynical, Leto is beginning to look forward to his death and to releasing mankind from the bonds of his authority. He has spent 3,500 years guiding mankind around Kralizeck and is now in the process of purposely revealing chinks in his armor so that his enemies can safely strike at him. He has but one requirement: that he dies in water, so that the sandworms in his body can break up and start the re-desertification of Arrakis that is needed to fuel the upcoming Scattering.

The deconstruction of Leto II is completed in Heretics of Dune, while the Atreidesian focus of the story lands on Darwi Odrade, long-time descendent of Siona Atreides and Duncan Idaho. HoD opens thousands of years in the future, with Leto II being a fading memory and people focused on more important concerns, especially the return of some groups from the Scattering, including the Honored Matres. HoD also follows the story of a special Duncan Idaho ghola and an Honored Matre whom Duncan persuades to switch sides.

In Chapterhouse Dune Darwi Odrade is removed (or dies, I don't recall) and the above-mentioned Honored Matre is made Mother Superior or whatever of the Bene Gesserit, a BG pounded nearly into submission by the superior training and numbers of the HM's. The pattern is kind of lost in this book as the following novel was left unwritten. However, at the end of Chapterhouse we are left with the knowledge that the Honered Matres weren't expanding, they were fleeing, and were going to use the Old Empire as the base of their final counter-attack - Kralizek returned despite the machinations of Leto II and Paul.

The final book was to be the Final Battle, with a combined HM/BG force fighting a return of the machines from the Butlerian Jihad. This is purely speculation on my part, but there are a lot of signals in the long story of Dune that point to a final war. Too bad it's going to be left to the hacks of Anderson and Jr. to depict the war that even Leto II feared.

[Scowler]

Originally posted by Harry Seldon
I was also suprised that Leto II's Fish Speakers weren't more involved in later tales. Leto II had spread them all over the empire and I thought this would lead to at least a greater superficial control over the destiny of the empire.

They were. The Fish Speakers that joined the Scattering evolved into the Honored Matres (with the ritual of Siaynoq leading to the HM sexual bonding techniques).