President Halonen wakes up

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Pekka
You forgot worshipping Satan.

What does that have to do with education and health care, you ungrateful child?

[Pekka]

There's no such thing as free education and free health care. It's like worshipping Satan. Some kids want to do that, but when Satan really shows up, they get lose it and go crazy, but before that, they really thought it was cool.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Pekka
There's no such thing as free education and free health care.

Yer absolutely correct.

So, instead of having socialized education and health care, you want to go with a system like the U.S., where almost a quarter of the population has no health care and we have a 70% functional literacy rate. Sounds like a real winner of a plan to me.

Then again, seeing as you're a product of the Finnish system, it can't be all that great.

[Pekka]

No, I don't want the same exact model here, it wouldn't work for us either.

In reality it means if you get sick, you go there and wait few years if the drunk underpaid doctors wants to mistreat you. And if you're really sick, you need to go on your own pocket and go to private side anyway.
What I'm trying to say, it's not free, it comes with a big price AND it's not working very good at the moment. I think at some point it might have worked fine, but now it doesn't. We are at 28 in our healthcare in the world, it included the quality of treatments and everything. Now, I'd say THAT IT SUCKS HORRIBLY! So, everyone gets treated like crap. It doesn't mean everyone has quality #1 winner treatment, no sir it does not. It could be that, if we were filled with money from the taxing etc, but everything is expensive these days, healthcare is very expensive.. so you want quality, you pay for it. Sure, it's absolutely better than nothing. I'm not talking about giving it all up, I'm talking about modifying things some.. and I wasn't cutting from healthcare. I wasn't cutting from education either. In my previous socialism sucks threads.

And the president said herself, the system can't take this anymore, if we lose few highly qualified people more to work in foreign countries. So, instead of praising the system and its high effeciency, and trying to get people work here because 'it's the right thing to do' is not exactly the solution to the problem. The solution is to make us more attractive, so the people will stay. That happens by thinkign how these people will benefit from working here. And then it comes down to why should they benefit, everyone who works should benefit. And since there is no free money around, that means cutting expenses, the question is where we cut it and where we put it.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Pekka
but when Satan really shows up

ummm.... examples?

[Pekka]

And things are going ok as we speak in here.. sure... but wait few years more.. it is only going down soon if we can't get our second wind and fight our problems. We need some more tools to do it.

Naturally I think how these things affects on me personally. What I see is paying big taxes all of my life and if lucky, my loans are paid from the place I live when I retire. I get 1100 euros a month (like my old man who worked so frigging hard for so long, from 16 years of age to 63) from which I can buy my food and maybe, just maybe go to Spain for a week every two years, if I'm lucky. Naturally at this point I should have my own kids, so I can throw that dream away since I'm supporting there education because whoops it wasn't so free. But I'm glad to do it, so that's ok. The problem comes when I get sick myself as an old man (hopefully old and not young), I get this poorly treated healthcare that no one questioned, and they start sending the priest to me since I'm dying to the flue and they don't have any money to use on me since everyone else is sick too. Ok, that happens I guess.. but now I can't also afford to pay from my pocket to get private and better treatment, because the system sucked it all in taxing. Now that sucks!

Sure, I could be out of job, and never get one because of some reasons, and I'd be happy to get that treatment right? Sure, but it's not right, that the ones who did work hard never got what they deserved.

[chequita guevara]

If I wasn't right there wouldn't be this cacophony of outrage that has sprung up.

(I think I'm just going to start quoting Rush whenever anyone disagrees with me. )

[Pekka]

And what then when my old man gets sick? I tell you he ****ing deserves the best treatment we have here. Sure, everyone deserves to be treated some way and not left alone, but I'm talking about hard working man who busted his butt for his family his whole life, and never took much pleasure with the money he earned himself. He deserves to have some fun in his old days now, but he can't afford crap. He was wise with his money, he saved, AND he invested and was lucky enough to win in that game. But still, can't do nothing but watch tv. So, if I was a real man, I'd go and work my butt of every free second I had and bought him stuff. And when he gets sick, what happens? He is divorced, so there's no one to take care of him. What do I do? If I'm graduated by then and working, I'm going to support him naturally with everything I can. But with our nightmare taxing and salaries? No way, I can make it my own but I doubt there's extra cents after that.

I need to get my butt out of here and make money, YES MAKE MONEY, dollars euros I don't care but I have to make them, and then I can pay for his treatments in some nicer place. I need to get a house, so I can bring him in maybe, or as my next door neighbour or at least somewhere close. That means money. That means lower taxing. That means hard work. That means studying hard so I get better chances of getting that good job. And god damnit I'll do it if I have any honour in me left, everything else is a ****ing miserable failure. And I trust if I'm broke like that when I hit 60 and start getting sick every now and then that my kids will do the same for me if the can afford it. I will afford it however. One way or another. So every socialist loving hippie can suck my butt.

[chequita guevara]

Why wait? If you're so opposed to the system you should refuse to suck at it's teat any longer and go abroad now.

[Pekka]

I'd like to ask you what does the wonderful communist system offer for guys like that? Nothing. Well, in real system like here, it doesn't. Sure life is hard. But if we weren't so stupid, guys like that would have it better. And since we need to prioritize in everything, I'd like to see men like that having good times treated by sober doctors using their best knowledge and taking all measures possible than boozers, drunks, job dodgers and other low lifers suck the money. The drink all the money they get anyway. And that money could be used to treat good and honest folks. I'm so damn angry now I'm not even tired anymore. I'm only one he has now, the system won't take ANY care of him WHAT SO EVER. That is the cold truth, there's nothing red wine drinking army dodging hippies can do about it. It's up to you what happens and how you make it, and the system shouldn't keep down the ones really wanting to work hard and honest. I mind you, he never went to schools higher than 9th grade, has been once in hospital for one day when he broke his thumb and has paid so much ****ing taxes you could build a rehab center for drug addicts with it. What did he get in return NOW when it counts the most? Nothing. Zero. Nada. So there's about zero ****ing communist loving cell in my body, or socialist loving to that matter. But that doesn't mean I hate you however, or meant this to you.

[Pekka]

Well first reason is, I plan on making better career than working on mcdonalds (though I might have to start from there or something simular), and second of all since my papers are not ready to be competitive with the rest of the working force, I'm not planning on leaving my dad alone.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Why wait? If you're so opposed to the system you should refuse to suck at it's teat any longer and go abroad now.

Is this one of those "love it or leave it arguements"? When are you leaving for Cuba or the DPRK?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Is this one of those "love it or leave it arguements"?

He's already stated he's going to try and leave, assuming he can find a country to take him.

[Pekka]

And I noticed your argument, you wanted to counter with the free education thing. I wasn't cutting from that if it was up to me. But sure, I got my education free, I didn't have to work for anything at all ever. I'd like people to understand my main point which is the system works if there's money, but when there's high unemployment with other things, cycle starts, and there is not enough money for these 'free things'. I heard rocks in Belarus are free! Woohoo! Great, but what are you going to do with them? They don't cure you if you're sick. It stinks when there's not enough money, because that means every free things quality lowers greatly. So now it's time for getting new tools to counter, so we can at least uphold some of these things with quality in them. Some treatment is better than no treatment. Prioritizing is happening here all the time, equality is just a word. Well, I do have a different idea of what equality is though. It is that you get what you order and if you don't order you get nothing. Pretty simple. There are few international laws that gives some rights to humans when they are born, but last time I checked it didn't say anything about drunks who need more booze money.

[Pekka]

A country to take me? What's that all about... I thought I stated pretty clearly, that I want to be competitive and skilled so that I have something to offer. I'm not expecting free rides. I'm against that, I thought I was being clear about that one.