I don't like old people

[DanielXY]

David Floyd

Why should they get anything at all? It's my money.

I have no problem giving away social welfware money. If you are poor, and cant get a job its the only solution to survive besides crime. I believe small figures crime would increase dramaticly if we would abolish social welfare. Keeping social welfare is cheaper than having to pay for all those police, trials, prisons, etc. (not to speak of all those personal dramas...)
But social welfare should be reduced to a more reasonable amount (cut it too 1/2, remove all extras).

State payed pensions in contrast are way to high. You can give them some credit that those folks payed in the system themselves. But the System is faulty. Dont see why our generation should bear all the burden of that faulty system (pay full, get nothing). Instead both should bear some of the burden. Those old ppl. should get social welfare by todays standards (2times the money I would give to normal ppl.), payed by the workforce of today. That would be about 1/3 they get by now.

So you see Im not for all out libertarianism, Im for a more pragmatic approach. (which is still too radical to be implemented in todays germany anyways..)

[duke o' york]

Mr Floyd, would you care to tell us how much you are currently paying into your pension fund?

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Flubber
I like all sorts of people . . .

My grandfather is 84 and still very sharp-- He can discuss current events and debate with the best of them-- He doesn't know pop music or much about computers but he has a wealth of experience from which ANYONE could learn.

I know a few teens. Some are incredibly tied up in computers and pop culture and don't seem interested in much else. Fair enough, there's nothing wrong with the fact that we gave nothing in common. But others are interested in local and national events. These teens have zip in experience but they can often look at something with fresh eyes.

A good discussion is a good discussion no matter how old the other party happens to be.


PAYING A FAIR SHARE


I understand the argument that many younger people are making today. They see governmnets hoist the idea of "user pays" in a whole host of areas that were largely government funded. Taxes are being cut which helps the established workforce while students face crushing tuition increases. They see their parents pulling in good incomes from their government subsidized educations but denying the same levels of funding to them. With pensions, the perception is that our parents paid far to little into the plans to maintain them and the current workfprce is being required to pay increased premiums to fund the previous generation that paid in too little.

While I respect what previous generations have done, including sacrifices in wartime, this issue is not about respect . . . its mainly about the population bulge of the babyboomers implementing policies which usually benerfit mainly BABYBOOMERS . .

Great post all the way around. There is a terrible degree of inequity in how much each of the generations has paid for the benefits they have received from the government. I'd like to see a real pension system replace our social security system, so that you are actually saving your own money for your own pension. Of course some will be bled off to pay for the indigent etc., but the fairness of such a system as well as its robustness seems to go without saying. It avoids some of the problems that the current system has in regards to demographic changes in society.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by rah


When your generation is in the majority, I'm sure it too will implement policies that benefit themselves. It's hard to imagine a majority implementing policies that will harm themselves.

Democracies are seldom about fairness. It's all politics.

No generation is a majority, it's all about getting a group of generations to work together to steal everything back from the boomers.

[Tattila the Hun]

I don't like people. Except fried ones, muahaha.

[David Floyd]

Mr Floyd, would you care to tell us how much you are currently paying into your pension fund?

Certainly. I have an IRA account that I put money into every month. On top of this, I work full time, and because of my lack of free time I can't reasonably spend all of my money, so I save what I can from each paycheck, as well.

Daniel,

As to crime increasing without welfare, if this happens then we should simply lock up those who commit crime.

[David Floyd]

Oh, and I have also have minor stock options.

[DanielXY]

@ David

My point is, its cheaper to pay welfare than the additional prison/police/trials costs would be.

[DAVOUT]

David Floyd, I am under the impression that you do not see how the active people ultimately pay for the inactive whatever is the system.

Let assume that all people save enough to sustain a reasonable standard of living when they retire, and that there is no other pension scheme. When they retire they will get a return on their investments under the form of rents (paid by people or corporations), interests (paid directly or indirectly by individual borrowers and corporations and the state) and dividends (paid by corporations).

Everything paid by the corporations is ultimately charged to the individuals, and the interests paid by the state are charged to individuals and corporations through taxes. So, all the retirees income comes ultimately from the people. People able to pay are either active or retired, but rents and interests are in vast majority paid by active people (you are not inclined to borrow when you retire, and generally you own your house). Rents, interests, taxes and dividends paid by the corporations are included in the prices paid by consumers, that are active people and retired people, but again the consumption of young active and inactive people exceeds by far the consumption of retirees.

I hope you see that in a system without collective pension scheme or pensions paid by the state, nevertheless the active people bear the cost of the retirees income ,… but they feel better because they ignore it. You can see also that if you replace the saving effort by an equivalent amount paid to a collective pension scheme, you do not reduce your standard of living.

The main issue is less about the system that about the demography. But it could be made still worse by *details* like the foreign US debt which results in having the US tax payers funding the Japanese and Chinese pensions.

[Japher]

DAVOUT

I think David Floyd's anger is not direct at old people that didn't save, but at the ill-managed social security pension program here in the US...

When we, younger folk, put money away in 401k, 401b, roth IRAs, ect. it is non-taxable money that we manage and we control. The money gets invested into funds, stocks, bonds, that eventually benefit the economy and buisness that will pay taxes to cover such things as the current social security programs, welfare, unemployment, and disability. On top of this, we pay personal taxes that also go to benefit these things, as well as Social Security...

It is not so much that we mind financing retirees, it is just that I don't like financing them twice or three times over due to poor management by the government. Who, took their money and gave to China, N. Korea, and Iraq...

Selfish? Yeah. But I don't want to rely on the US government, or any government for that matter, to pay my pention...

[DAVOUT]

Originally posted by Japher
DAVOUT

I think David Floyd's anger is not direct at old people that didn't save, but at the ill-managed social security pension program here in the US...

When we, younger folk, put money away in 401k, 401b, roth IRAs, ect. it is non-taxable money that we manage and we control. The money gets invested into funds, stocks, bonds, that eventually benefit the economy and buisness that will pay taxes to cover such things as the current social security programs, welfare, unemployment, and disability. On top of this, we pay personal taxes that also go to benefit these things, as well as Social Security...

It is not so much that we mind financing retirees, it is just that I don't like financing them twice or three times over due to poor management by the government. Who, took their money and gave to China, N. Korea, and Iraq...

Selfish? Yeah. But I don't want to rely on the US government, or any government for that matter, to pay my pention...

I can appreciate your concern about the management of the Social Security; we suffer the same trouble here. But it is also important to consider that managing your own savings over fourty years is not without risk (mainly inflation, cracks and crooks). Most ordinary people are not able to afford this risk, and for them a collective scheme is a guarantee not to loose everything.

[Japher]

I can appreciate your concern about the management of the Social Security; we suffer the same trouble here. But it is also important to consider that managing your own savings over fourty years is not without risk (mainly inflation, cracks and crooks). Most ordinary people are not able to afford this risk, and for them a collective scheme is a guarantee not to loose everything.

How is it collective to throw millions of people into a single governments pot for them to stir and eat as they like? If the government losses all the money they just tax the people more to cover their losses until ppl eventually have no money to live on because they have to give it all to the government to pay for the people who are retired!?

It obviously does not work to have a crapy government accountant manage everyones retirement and have the active people fund the inactive people retirement. The idea of the SS fund was to have people fund their own retirement... that didn't work! Thus, SS should be disbanded... and I think it will be before I am able to collect.

[DAVOUT]

I agree with the diagnosis (we do exactly the same here) but I have some doubt about the care ...

[Japher]

I heard a story on the radio today about an old lady somewhere that was evicted from her home due to foreclosure. When the authorities entered the home they found buckets and containers of fecal matter all over the house and even in the fridge... Strange really, and very sad.

I think seniors need support and I have no problem supporting those who cannot support themselves. I am just sick and tired of giving to a failed and failing system. All the money that I give to this "pension" is supposidly going to benefit me when I'm old? BS!

It may be benefiting the elderly of today, but I don't want to be a burden on society when I am old anymore than those who are old today didn't want to be a burden. Yet, the government turned them into one.


On another note:

My parents are very well off, and because of which are questioning whether they should deny their SS. Should they?

[Jack_www]

Originally posted by Japher
I heard a story on the radio today about an old lady somewhere that was evicted from her home due to foreclosure. When the authorities entered the home they found buckets and containers of fecal matter all over the house and even in the fridge... Strange really, and very sad.

I think seniors need support and I have no problem supporting those who cannot support themselves. I am just sick and tired of giving to a failed and failing system. All the money that I give to this "pension" is supposidly going to benefit me when I'm old? BS!

It may be benefiting the elderly of today, but I don't want to be a burden on society when I am old anymore than those who are old today didn't want to be a burden. Yet, the government turned them into one.


On another note:

My parents are very well off, and because of which are questioning whether they should deny their SS. Should they?

One solution to that is the the ladys children make sure that she is taken care of and has a clean place to live with a bathroom and good food to eat. Everyone should make sure that they parents dont end up like this. Of course if your parents are crazy and like to kill people or if they refused to work and like to be a bum on the street that is different.