Working with Foreigners

[Snotty]

Originally posted by Proteus_MST

that for example before a court, it is the responsibility of the court, to make clear that a foreign immigrant before the court understands everything which is spoken.
It also involves, that the court has to provide translators, who translate everything which is said in the court.

This seems to be common sense to me. It is much easier for the court to find a translator than it is for the imigrant. You cant try people for crimes when they dont understand what you are saying. Its just wrong.

I understand how this system could be open to abuse, but surely you must have some kind of qualification for the translators so you know they can speak the language needed.

[Snotty]

Originally posted by Q Cubed
consonantal

Excuse my ignorance, but what kind of sounds are these?

[Verres]

That is pretty bad, actually (the case being counted as a procedural failure if the immigrant claims stuff wasnt translated properly). Although having said that, if you get tried in a foriegn country, cant you arrange for your embassey to do translations and stuff? If I was tried for drug smuggling in Mexico or something (a purely hypothetical situation ) then I would be entirely dependant on a translator to make sure I understood the case properly...

But I suppose it is different if you are actually living in that country; then it should be up to the individual to make sure they understand what is gong on - they have chosen to live in the place so should make sure they are familiar enough with the language to cope with legal processes. It's a bit different if you are just visiting though.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Verres
Hmmm...I personally find it very embarrasing that we (meaning Britain and the US) expect - or rather insist that - everyone speaks english all the time. I know it might be a bit isolating in a workplace if your colleagues are all gabbling away in a language you dont understand...and yeah, you do tend to assume they are talking about you (God, why are we humans so self-obsessed??) but I hate the way they are forced to struggle to speak English all the time in certain jobs, even though most of their colleagues may also speak a different language.

This happened at my school. There were a lot of Indian and Chinese girls and, although they spoke perfect english, they tended to stick together; and the staff always made sure they never spoke their native tongue at school. They got into big trouble if they were caught speaking to each other in any language other than english.

This was horrible. I dont want foreign workers in my country to feel I am some bigoted idiot who is forcing them to speak my language just because I cant be bothered to learn a few basic phrases in theirs. Obviously, when it comes to taking instructions from the boss etc, they should use whichever language is dominent in the country they are in - but around colleagues, I dont see the harm in letting them speak whatever language they feel most comfortabloe with.

If you have a problem with it, try learning a bit of their language. Communication is a two way thing, y'know.

that is not like US at all

Jon Miller

[Zero]

Originally posted by Snotty


Excuse my ignorance, but what kind of sounds are these?

I think Q-cubed meant

Japanese: (const),(vowel),(const),(vowel),(const),(vowel),(c onst),(vowel),(const),(vowel),(const),(vowel),(con st),(vowel),(const),(vowel),(const),(vowel),

with very few exception of (const),(vowel),(const),(const)


Korean: Much less Vowel,const alteration. "Like" english.


Chinese is easy to tell apart. You hear all three and you'll know.

[Verres]

that is not like US at all

Glad to hear it. It looks as though I may soon be emigrating if this really is the case!

[Q Classic]

Excuse my ignorance, but what kind of sounds are these?

well, here's an example using the words for a few languages. periods denote the end of a syllable. you'll note that by and large, korean has more consonantal endings in their syllables, and japanese more vowel sounds.

korean for korean:
han.guk.mal

korean for japanese:
il.bon.mal

korean for chinese:
chung.guk.mal

japanese for korean:
kan.ko.ku.go

japanese for japanese:
ni.hon.go

japanese for chinese:
chu.go.ku.go

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by Verres
That is pretty bad, actually (the case being counted as a procedural failure if the immigrant claims stuff wasnt translated properly). Although having said that, if you get tried in a foriegn country, cant you arrange for your embassey to do translations and stuff? If I was tried for drug smuggling in Mexico or something (a purely hypothetical situation ) then I would be entirely dependant on a translator to make sure I understood the case properly...

But I suppose it is different if you are actually living in that country; then it should be up to the individual to make sure they understand what is gong on - they have chosen to live in the place so should make sure they are familiar enough with the language to cope with legal processes. It's a bit different if you are just visiting though.

Yep, that´s IMHO the really bad part.
There´s no problem, if it is just some foreigner, who is living for a short time here in Germany, after which he returns home, or if he is just immirated and therefore of course doesn´t have extensive knowledge of the german language.
But what really pisses me off are immigrants who live for years here in Germany and not even try to learn the german language.
After all there are sponsored German Courses for immigrants, so they don´t have to pay anything to learn at least the bsic principles of our language.
Maybe the bst thing would be something between how it is handled now in germany and the amrican system.

For example, if Foreigners lived less than 5 years in Germany, it is the rsponsibility of the cout, to provide ranslators and make sure, the people undersand everything.
But if people lived for more than 5 years here in Germany, they have to make sure for themselves, that they understand everything and it is their failure, if they don´t do so.

[Zero]

Exception of mal with go, you have both language sounding basically the same.

[Q Classic]

Exception of mal with go, you have both language sounding basically the same.

of course. until recently, chinese, korean, and japanese all had similar sounding names for the days of the week. then china turned red, and that changed. korean and japanese still use the same traditional characters, though. for instance, friday is "keum.yo.il" in korean, and "kin.yo.bi" in japanese; saturday is "to.yo.il" (k), "to.yo.bi" (j). it extends to other things, like teacher: "sun.saeng" (k), "sen.sei" (j), university: "dae.hak.kyo" (k), "dai.gak.ku" (j), promise: "yak.sok" (k), "ya.ku.so.ku" (j).

most of these words are the ones that were borrowed from china and assimilated into both languages.

[Snotty]

Originally posted by Proteus_MST


For example, if Foreigners lived less than 5 years in Germany, it is the rsponsibility of the cout, to provide ranslators and make sure, the people undersand everything.
But if people lived for more than 5 years here in Germany, they have to make sure for themselves, that they understand everything and it is their failure, if they don´t do so.

No, no, no. If I was being tried in court in a language other than my native language they MUST provide translation. Even with 5 years education you would be discriminating against people who have not perfected the language. And court is a place you should understand every word that is said. Translation is much easier for the court to provide than it is for the defendant to organize it.

Again, I am sure you are sore because your system is being abused, but removing translation is not the way to fix it.

[Snotty]

Originally posted by Q Cubed

of course. until recently, chinese, korean, and japanese all had similar sounding names for the days of the week. then china turned red, and that changed.

Sorry to keep picking your brain on this Q cubed, but do you know how much the chinese language changed after the revolution? Is it confined to day names (months maybe?) or is it more widespread?

[Zero]

Q-cubed you forgot the best ex:

Setakki - Setakki

(laundry machine)

[Q Classic]

it's no problem. i wager it's more widespread. the day names all have connections to various elements and metals ("keum"/"kin" character == "gold"), but now in china it's literally something like "fifth day" or whatever. as for months, that's not going to be an issue, because all three languages call the months by number: april is literally "fourth month".
unfortunately, since i don't really know much mandarin, that's about all i can say.

[Q Classic]

Q-cubed you forgot the best ex:

Setakki - Setakki

(laundry machine)

even though there are vocabulary similarities, don't make the mistake of connecting korean and japanese to chinese; chinese is tonal, the other two are not (tone does matter a fraction in tokyo ben japanese, and in certain dialects in north eastern korea, but it's nowhere near as complex a tonal system as chinese). chinese is subject verb object, while korean and japanese are subject object verb.

now, there's flimsy evidence linking korean and japanese to other languages, the current one in vogue being the ural-altaic group (turkish, finnish, magyar), but that's tenuous at best. japanese and korean also are flimsily linked: some of the basic words that would show genetic linkage are different: dad: "ah.bu.ji" (k), "chi.chi"; i: "na" (k), "wa.ta.shi" (j).