A question about the recent votes on the UNSC.

[Dinner]

An interesting theory. It might even be true.

[HershOstropoler]

Re: A question about the recent votes on the UNSC.

Originally posted by Oerdin
Blaming Israel solely for the violence and condemning Isreal for their recent vote to marginalize Arafat seems like a slam dunk for a contential power.

Have you started to believe your own proaganda?

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=8275&Cr=middle&Cr1=east

The resolution expressed full support for the Quartet's efforts and "calls for increased efforts to ensure the implementation of the Road Map by the two sides."

German Ambassador Gunter Pleuger said his country's abstention did not mean that it had changed its opposition to the expulsion of Mr. Arafat and he called on Israel to revoke its decision. United Kingdom Ambassador Emyr Jones Parry said his country considered the text of the resolution as insufficiently balanced and therefore unhelpful in implementing the Road Map but he urged Israel not to misunderstand the international rejection of its decision in principle to remove Mr. Arafat.

And btw:

Ich spüre Ihre freundschaftliche Haltung zu Israel und Ihre aufrichtige Sorge um die Sicherheit und das Wohlergehen des jüdischen Staates. Seit dem historischen Treffen zwischen David Ben-Gurion und Bundeskanzler Konrad Adenauer im Waldorf Astoria
Hotel in New York, das 15 Jahre nach Ende des Zweiten Weltkrieges stattfand, haben sich stabile und freundschaftliche Beziehungen zwischen Israel und Deutschland entwickelt, die sich immer weiter vertiefen.

From a speech by Moshe Katsav in Germany, December 2002.

http://berlin.mfa.gov.il/mfm/Data/16577.pdf

Maybe you're just blinded by your rabid likudnik bias.

[Bereta_Eder]

Re: Re: A question about the recent votes on the UNSC.

what i understood is:

israel: we're gonna kill arafati if we want to

UN: are you ****ing nuts?


US: objection!

[Sirotnikov]

while I agree that germany has a special relationship with Israel, I don't think it is what made them abstain. I think they do realize that Israel is not to blame for the whole escalation.

Bulgaria and Britain seem to agree.

The other countries worried that if they abstain, Israel would see at as a green light to expel Arafat.

The US simply didn't want yet another UN bashing of Israel.


And as far as Arafat goes - when he is removed in a months time - nothing special will happen. I'm almost sure that two weeks later, the whole Palestinain government will be back to bussiness.

There is a small chance for civil war, but I think it's unlikely. And in any such case, the EU, US and Israel will do everything to make sure that the reasonable PA leaders come out victorious, and very shortly. Otherwise known as "open Hamas hunting season".

[Nubclear]

Yeah. Last time you made him an irrelevant leader....

[Sirotnikov]

What foreign countries fear is a civil war will break out in the PA.

What you must understand is that from Israel's point of view, it is not threatening. Because while it will increase the general amount of voilence in the area, it will reduce the amount of violence pointed at Israelis.

The PA and all the terrorist groups have been acting in full force for the last 3 years. That's as high as they can make it against Israel.

When Arafat (and maybe some of his close aids too) is gone, there is no one to get Pals shiploads of weapons from Iran (remember Karin A). No one cat act as if they are fighting terror, when they are infact not doing a thing (bogus "hamas arrests" when people are served tea and biscuits and released a week later).

So Arafat, the person who masterminded and "steered" this intifada, will be gone. And without him at the controls, the violence against Israel won't go higher that it was during the last 3 years. Unless Israel for some reason stops hunting Hamas. Which it won't.

[Dinner]

Dyl: I never said Germany supported the Israel cabinet's recent vote and simply asked why Germany abstained from the vote. The anwser based upon your quote and what others have said is that the German government does agree with the Syrian bill but that they were afraid to vote for it out of fear of being called anti-semitic.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
If Syria had dropped the part about blaming Israelo alone for the Mideast violence, we might have actually voted for it considering the fact that we have been publically condemning Israel for threatening to kill Arafat.

I doubt it. Despite being opposed to exiling or killing Arafat, the US simlpy does not allow critical UNSC votes of Israel to go unvetoed, even when fully warranted.

[muppet]

Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
Yeah. Last time you made him an irrelevant leader....

Are you talking the Palestinian PM or the American President?
Oh! Irrelevant. I thought your wrote incompentent....

[Sirotnikov]

Yeah. Last time you made him an irrelevant leader....

He truly became an irrelevant leader.

Almost no one visited him for the last several months.

You people have absolutely no time scale or sense.

This whole "we love Arafat" show is a short sherade. Rather the last respect payed to Arafat before he is removed from the picture.

Once removed, a few months later, he'll be about as popular as Ghadaffi or Idi Amin.

[Nubclear]

No, Israel doesn't make leaders incompentent. Israels leaders do that all to well to themselves.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
I doubt it.

Considering the fact that we are publically condemning the Israeli idea, I'll lean more toward my view that the resolution would have gone through.

[Sirotnikov]

I doubt it. Despite being opposed to exiling or killing Arafat, the US simlpy does not allow critical UNSC votes of Israel to go unvetoed, even when fully warranted.

While I understand the european logic for demanding Israel not to target Arafat, it is completely unwarranted or justified to blame Israel for the recent events.

It was not Israel that pulled the rug under Abu Mazen - but Arafat. It was not Israel that started a wave of assassinations of terrorist leaders, but a bloody Hamas attack on a Jerusalem Bus.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov

I doubt it. Despite being opposed to exiling or killing Arafat, the US simlpy does not allow critical UNSC votes of Israel to go unvetoed, even when fully warranted.

While I understand the european logic for demanding Israel not to target Arafat, it is completely unwarranted or justified to blame Israel for the recent events.

Look at it this way. Even in situations where a critical vote is warrented, the US will vetoe anything critical of Israel. This situation it was not warranated, therefore how could we expect the US to do anything but veto the resolution. But Syria gets to make the US again look like the bad guy in the Arab world.

[Dinner]

Re: Re: A question about the recent votes on the UNSC.

Originally posted by HershOstropoler
Maybe you're just blinded by your rabid likudnik bias.

BTW I'm hardly a Likudist. Though I do admite that the since the Palestinian leadership sponsors terrorism I believe they are a threat to the world and the current crop of leaders should be removed from power. I further admite that I blame the Palestinian leadership for not wanting peace especially since Clinton came up with a very reasonable peace plan which gave them 98% of what they wanted but Arafat still refused peace.

Can Israel do anything to make peace more likely? Yes, the furthest out settlements should ultimately be abandoned though doing so is a big step and Arafat will never trade anything for it. On the contrary Arafat is taken every concession offered so far and then the PA has simply increased terror attacks believing that will bring about more concessions. Clearly, Israel has tried to end the violence many times in the last 12 years but the Palestinians have always opted for violence.

How can peace be achieved when the PA will not accept it? Arafat thinks he'll get more from violence then from peace there for he has always refused peace and so he is an obstical to peace.