Israel decides to expel Arafat

[Bereta_Eder]

.

[Az]

anyway, back on topic:

who thinks this will actually be carried out?

[Ned]

I know how the Bush admin is handling this, they are against it. But what are the positions of the top Democrats? Anyone know?

[Edan]

Originally posted by Ned
Who is this man, Bush? Is he a closet liberal?

Well, he certainly ain't a fiscal conservative.

[PLATO]

“The problem is not just my problem and the threats that Israel has made to eliminate or remove me,” Arafat said. “The problem, the real danger, is the intent of the Israeli government to cancel the Palestinian partner and to eliminate the presence of the Palestinian Authority.”

http://www.msnbc.com/news/801833.asp?0cv=CB10

The man starts to take the stage and shift the focus from his own bloody role.

[HershOstropoler]

If you want Arafat to gain further in stature, this threat of expulsion is exactly the way forward. The question is, are Sharon and co acting on wishful thinking, or are they looking for an escalation?

An interesting thesis for the latter:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/339476.html

Indeed, the people who are deciding Israel's future know that they are not eliminating terrorism but heightening it, but they believe that this is the heavy price to which we have to agree in order to destroy the Palestinians' capability to maintain national existence. In
their view, the breaking of the population's resistance and the ghettoization of the territories are a sine qua non for the consolidation of Israel's future.

[Bereta_Eder]

That seems to be the plausible explanation indeed

[Bereta_Eder]

I read part of the article. That this move will lead to further radicalization of the Palestinians, will not reduce terrorism in the slightest and has good chances of increasing it is a given. However as to exactly why they want that it's not clear. To what extend can their responce be anyway.

[Sirotnikov]

Once again, this clearly shows that the Israeli government is not viewing the Pals as their equal but as second class citizens, people to dictate terms to.

stupid. stupid. stupid. stupid.

This is as idiotic as saying that the US sees Mexicans as second class citizens, people to dicatate terms to.

Palestinains are not second-class Israeli citizens. They are not Israeli citizens at all. They are all citizens of the PA autonomy.

Arafat is NOT the president of Israeli Arabs. Israeli Arabs have their won leaders and their own Knesset Members. He is the chairman of the Palestinain Authority, and the chiarman of PLO.

It is a stupid ignorant mix between palestinian authority, israeli arab citizens and what not.

I rule you to be too damn ignorant to post about this conflict ever again.

[Sirotnikov]

I've walways wondered about Arafat's being democratically elected...who were the other candidates in that election? Anyone know of any?

some local bussiness man.
of course with Arafat being in direct control from ... 1993, he didn't stand much chance now, did he?

[Sirotnikov]

When the peace process worked ? Well, I assume it pleads in tha favor of what I say

That's like saying that the 'peace process (appeasement policy) worked' between 1933 and 1939, and that WWII was not a failure of the 'peace process' (aka appeasement policy) with germany.

Yes. That's because Arafat is an ******* and a thug. I am very much in favor of him losing power. I'm merely saying than his only expulsion from power will NOT be enough, if you can't allow his sucessors to be "moderate". I'm also telling this money should somehow bribe the PA government into actively fughting terrorism, and into changing its propaganda: Arafat got his support on his historical 'legitimacy', and on the hatred for the Jews. He actively promoted hatred.
The 'moderate' government should be heavily helped / bribed so that radicalism stops to be vital for it, and even so that radicalism becomes dangerous for it (because it would stop the funding/bribing machine).

Well that's what we ARE trying to do. To create incentives for a PA government to fight terrorism.
Carrot: Peace progress, IDF leaves, settlements frozen
Stick: otherwise we'll assassinate Hamas, weaken your base of power, do the job ourselves

Thank you. You just said you want the war to last forever

Nope.
I've said that I'm not willing to sign any more fake "peace plans".

The only solution is an absolute crushing victory - all of the terrorist group leaders killed, the whole "old leadership" of the PA killed.

Yes, I like Rabin. And yes, he was right when telling Arafat is a dangerous guy for the peace.
Now, he is far from being the only reason for the war. Palestinians live in fear and disgust as much as Israelis do. You may tell all you want "we do everything possible to avoid civilian deaths" (which I trust), it doesn't change the basic reality that a Palestinian can fear of being crippled or dead when he leaves for work in the morning. It doesn't change the fact the Palestinians suffer from a all-day-long humiliation.

true. And as soon as their government starts acting against terrorists, they will have the humiliation spared, the assassiantions stopped, the IDF out.

Let's review back to 2000.

The PA has control of all A and B areas. IDF is out. No assassinations. Palestinian police, HQs untouched.
Do the PA do something to stop terrorism?
Nope.
They set all of their Hamas and Islamic Jihad prisoners free!!!!

Arafat is an ******* and profits from this situation, so he'll do nothing to change it. Islamists profit hugely from the situation, and they'll do everything to worsen it. A replacing government (especially Israel-sponsored) will be too weak to adress it. Only Israel could do something about it.

exactly.
So arafat needs to be removed.
the Islamists need to be removed.
A replacing government won't work right now.

Solution:
1)remove arafat, his friends, and the islamists.
2)install temporary limited autonomy
3)wait several years until local strong leaders evolve.
4)persue peace then.

I know it's not your job, but if you're the only ones who can do it, you should swallow your pride and do it. It is in your interest as much as the Pals'.

I agree.
But I see no possible plan to solve the situation except what I proposed above.

This is precisely why I oppose this decision. It is rushed and not weighted enough. I prefer to take some more time so that good decisions can be taken. A wrong decision is not beter than no decision at all.

I think the Israeli government has approached this decision in a much weighted and non-rushed form.

Rushed, would be, if we would have decided to expell him in october 2000.

after 10 years of lies, it is not rushed. It's slow learning.

The idea of promoting Abu Mazen was great. In the end, it failed because Abu Mazen was shackled by the impression eh gave that he was "the man of the Israelis". Had Israel given him more (financial) strength to please the population, he might have won the hearts of the Pals

WRONG.

Israel gave a whole lot of financial strength. A good part of the curfew were off. A good part of the roadblocks were off. Export and Import were no longer stiffled. Tens of thousands were allowed to work inside Israel. Money was given to the PA.

Abu Mazen decided to resign because of 1 reason and 2 events that threatened his life.
The reason is Arafat.
The two events:
1. Arafat sponsored "protestors" from the Al-Aqsa brigades appeared outside the PLC discussion of his government, began yelling "Abu Mazen is a trator" "Arafat is the only leader" and sprayed death threats to Abu Mazen.

2. In another council meeting, Arafat called Abu-Mazen "Karzai" referring to the president of Afghanistan, which is considered an installed leader, a traitor.

If Israel has a plan for the succession, and how to make the successor both cooperative and supported by the population, I'm all for it. If such a plan doesn't exist, this decision is simply wrong

You first need to "brainwash" the population.
You can't do that when it's being brainwashed by Arafat or Hamas (with Arafat turning a blind eye).

OR, they could return to working with the PA, accepting that Arafat remains the head but ignoring him, and doing things to help build the political strength of another individual who can then challange Arafat for the leadership and win the backing of the Palestinians from Arafat.

We tried that. What do you think Abu Mazen was?

But everyone, including Abu Mazen admits - there can be no other power while Arafat is in charge. No one is powerfull enough to "ignore" him.

So distancing him from the scene, must be physical.

Not hitting Hamas is not the same as running Hamas: the Islamist militants act outside of Aarafts control and if anyone gains from an Israeli obcession with him it is them..just look, two years of attacking the PA, and now even if the PA wanted to take oin Hamas they are much weaker than before while hamas retains its political popularity.

But that is again a mix of irrelevant straw men.

No one accused Arafat or running Hamas.

Arafat merely declared Hamas leaders as heroes, named streets after them, and held public funerals for them (see the serniour hamas engineer we killed in 1996 when his cellphone exploded).

Arafat merely made sure that palestinain school books suggest that martyrdom is the best action. Arafat merely made sure that Hamas supporting preachers are appointed to mosquest. Arafat merely made sure that the state run television and radio channels, give stage to Hamas supporting preachers. Arafat merely made sure that Hamas converters were allowed to reign free in universities.

He's practically innocent!!!



As for blaming Israel of attacking the PA - it is again silly.

In fall 2000, the PA, having had it's full strength, it's cities under its control, no IDF actions so far, HAVE RELEASED ALL HAMAS AND ISLAMIC JIHAD MEMBERS FROM PRISON!!!

It's not a question of making them want to fight terrorism. Israel agreed to negociate with them, because they promised they would do that. As soon as they broke that contract, Israel is better off without them, fighting terrorism on it's own. And the PA is no longer a partner, since they don't keep their part of the deal.

And that is without mentioning that Arafat funds and controls the Al-Aqsa brigades.

I´m against it too. But if one is for or against that decision - only announcing that Arafat will be expelled, then waiting until even the last Palestinian views him as martyr and supports him even more is the most stupid thing to do. They should either not do it at all (or keep quiet if there are any plans), or they should do it immediately without such an announcement that gives Arafat a kind of importance he hardly had during the past months.

I disagree. I see it as a vaccination for the real deal.

First we announce that we will rid of Arafat, and take all the PR and foreign hit we can. Remember that while we haven't actually done this, the PR hit is not as big, since we haven't actually carried anything out.

Meanwhile, public opinion gets used to the fact that Arafat is doomed. Since Arafat is not yet gone, the foreign governments are not yet furious, and level-headed enough to think about the possibility of Arafat being gone, and deciding it's not such a bad thing after all. The PA uses up all the tricks it has to put public pressure on Israel, and physically defend Arafat.

By the time Israel does expell Arafat - it is a non-event. Public opinion have deal and "went on" so to speak, to other issues. Foreign governments have made peace with that decision, without being "infuriated" at a sharp Israeli step. All the Arab street is already tired from protesting 24/7 for weeks.

See?

[Sirotnikov]

eek
so many spelling mistakes. so little time.
it's 3 AM. i'm going to bed or something.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov

When the peace process worked ? Well, I assume it pleads in tha favor of what I say

That's like saying that the 'peace process (appeasement policy) worked' between 1933 and 1939, and that WWII was not a failure of the 'peace process' (aka appeasement policy) with germany.

Didn't I put a smiley in this sentence (can't remember ) It was just a phrase to have a cheap shot before the real post

Well that's what we ARE trying to do. To create incentives for a PA government to fight terrorism.
Carrot: Peace progress, IDF leaves, settlements frozen
Stick: otherwise we'll assassinate Hamas, weaken your base of power, do the job ourselves

Add "settlements removed", "bribes", "artificial betterment of the average Pal situation" to the carrot, and I'm sure you'd have a ticket. The Euros would be more than willing to share the price of the bribes and welfare. After all, signing checks is our favorite warfare strategy

Thank you. You just said you want the war to last forever

Nope.
I've said that I'm not willing to sign any more fake "peace plans".

The only solution is an absolute crushing victory - all of the terrorist group leaders killed, the whole "old leadership" of the PA killed.

And what do you expect the result of the power vacuum will be ? In case of a succession civil war (or hopefully palace war), the neighbouring Arab countries can still send throngs of Imams to gather support and profit from the increased hatred against Israel. In such a situation, your best hope is that a very charismatic moderate Pal emerges. More realistically, the best solution would be a political expert trained by a non-Islamic neighbouring country, i.e Syria or Iran
My point may not be clear, but I mean this: killing all these people as you wish it will create a lack of qualified political personnel. This vacuum will be filled by foreign or foreign-trained agents.

true. And as soon as their government starts acting against terrorists, they will have the humiliation spared, the assassiantions stopped, the IDF out.

Let's hope you're right. I feel the Israelis will be too demanding to the PA government, even if this government will be in a cooperative mood. I can't blame Israel for being demanding, since I can understand the deepest desire for Israelis is to stop living in fear. But if Israeli politicians aren't strong enough to limit their demands towards the PA, the cooperation is likely to fail.

[The diplomat]

This quote from a Jerusalem Post article (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...=1063266356786), really struck me:

The crowd held photos of Arafat and chanted: "With our blood and souls we will redeem you." Arafat answered: "With our blood and souls, we will redeem you, Palestine."

Redeem Palestine" is clearly a euphemism for "eliminate Israel".

Arafat was and still is a terrorist who wants the destruction of Israel.

I hope Israel does expel him soon.

[GePap]

The basic issue is this: will removing Arafat do anything to further the peace proicess? The answer is a resounding NO. NO Palestinians will dare come forward to weork with the Israelis as long as he is out of the country, for fear of looking like an appeaser and sell-out to the Israelis. If he is killed in the attempt, then he becomes a martyr and then again, no pals will work with Israel for a while (perhaps they can boycott Sharon, who has as much blood on his hands). All the while, Arafat gets to hold news conferences on the outside.

That is the simple fact of it, and all the people calling for his ouster have yet to make any case that that won;t be the outcome of this move.