Guns, Germs, and Steel

[TCO]

Originally posted by Ramo


I don't think he's saying that. I think that he's saying that his personal experience is that New Guineans tend to be smarter than Westerners, so factors other than ethnicity probably determine whether or not a society is capable of developing civilization. And the meat of the book explains what some of these factors might be.

You missed my point (with respect to multiple factors). I'm referring to a much more global issue raised by the book and by its supporters. Specifically that it is a refuation of genetic intellectual variance among the races of man.

[TCO]

I also think it is rather silly for him to cite his personal basis for thinking one race is smarter than another
(from an isolated interaction) and ignore any testing evidence/literature.

[Odin]

Sorry about the Fezzing (or should it be Odinning ). I had just read the book and I have kind of a short fuse. I was kicking myself when MtG hit me with his banning rod.

Anyway, Diamond's arguments seem good; abouth the New Guineans, I don't think etnic groups have any in-born differences in intellegence, but the type of intellegence vairies. A good example I found when I was researching ADHD. I read an article that said that the longer a society was agricultural the lower the incidence of ADHD, Australian Aborigines and the Khoisan people of S. Africa having among the highest rates and China having among the lowest, most other groups fit this pattern. So ADHD helps hunter-gatherers and pastorialists; it is selected against in agricultural societies. I have ADHD by the way.

[Al B. Sure!]

I have ADHD by the way.

why must you tell us this? you make a sensible point (amazing coming from you as can be shown by your previous posts in this thread), and then you throw in some self-obsession thing. calm down, boy... at least you're learning

[Odin]

Originally posted by Albert Speer


why must you tell us this? you make a sensible point (amazing coming from you as can be shown by your previous posts in this thread), and then you throw in some self-obsession thing. calm down, boy... at least you're learning

*Puts duct tape on mouth*

[Ecthy]

bump

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by JohnT
And it is the "solely" part that disturbs me. Once again, in Diamonds Universe the world of ideas and beliefs have nothing to do with the development of civilizations.

Ideas and beliefs tend to follow the material environment. There is a reason why those ideas appeared in NorthWestern Europe and not elsewhere, which has to do with the conditions that the people living there had to face. But then these ideas can be the impetus to change the environment, which can give rise to a new set of ideas.

[lord of the mark]

In some cases GGS is on shaky ground - for example his theories on the origin of Malayo-Polynesian language family. So take all specific assertions with a grain of salt. But still an interesting introduction to lots of big ideas on macrohistory.

Particularly should be on the reading list of every Civ player.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Elok


He does not in any way complement the evil savages. So far as I can tell Diamond lives an entirely different lifestyle from the natives of New Guinea. They don't go together at all.
Coo-coo-ka-woo.

But at least some of the New Guinea natives think a nice Cabernet complements Diamond very nicely.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by lord of the mark

Particularly should be on the reading list of every Civ player.

. . . which is one reason I have it -- I'm a Civ fan.

[Straybow]

Concentration takes effort. It is a discipline. ADHD is just another way of saying lazy.

Seriously though: One speculation about ADHD is that it is environmentally triggered. Instant gratification is an acquired addictive behavior.

Another related speculation is that ADHD is way over-diagnosed for people raised in intrinsically distracting environments.

[Ecthy]

1. what is ADHD?

2. I can't find no History of the World by Roberts, only his Penguin History of Europe and a History of the World In 10 1/2 Chapters by a Mr Barnes...

[JohnT]

1. ADHD - Attention Deficit Hyperactive Disorder. It's another one of those "diseases", like peanut allergies, that apparently didn't exist 30 years ago but now people left and right are suffering from it. Yes, I'm going to get flamed mightily for this statement, but I don't care.

2. History of the World. It's gone through a number of name changes since first published - it also used to be called "Penguin History of the World", etc.

[Elok]

ADHD is a genuine but highly over-diagnosed disorder. The "hyperactive" component is not always prevalent or even present; I'm just inattentive without Concerta. I remember trying to take tests back in fourth grade and being quite literally incapable of concentration. My mind would instantaneously lock onto another subject the second I began to focus on the task at hand, no matter how I tried. I nearly drove myself to tears trying to keep busy in some cases. Some of it I outgrew, and the continuous medication has probably had a long-term effect on my behavior, but I'm pretty sure it's not purely a product of pop-culture imagination.
And LotM: ironically, I had three or four glasses of wine in me when I wrote that remark.