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Bush's 'plain-talking' is just an inventive way to cover up his ineptness. I remember, at the start of the road map, his naivety and inexperience were being touted as bonuses; unlike Clinton, who was well-briefed and informed, George would not be derailed by squabbles over individual farms and so on. I, for one, thought it might actually work. Unsurprisingly, it failed.
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Well it's a combination of the complete lack of tact and diplomatic skills combined with policies that are far to the right of anything in mainstream European politics.Originally posted by DanS
Well, I know it's frustrating. But if there aren't even any "old Europe" moments to hang your hat on, then how am I to know on what Bush needs to work? Sounds to me like Europe is punishing the messenger.Jon Miller: MikeH speaks the truth
Jon Miller: MikeH is a shockingly revolting dolt and a masturbatory urine-reeking sideshow freak whose word is as valuable as an aging cow paddy.
We've got both kindsComment
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I think it's almost all about the policies. It's a natural human reaction to dislike hearing a view that is diametrically opposed to your own. Even moreso when you know that there's not going to be much opportunity for persuasion.
I don't like Schroeder or that French guy much because of it.
I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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It's both but yes, the policies are often scary and offensive (to European ears).Jon Miller: MikeH speaks the truth
Jon Miller: MikeH is a shockingly revolting dolt and a masturbatory urine-reeking sideshow freak whose word is as valuable as an aging cow paddy.
We've got both kindsComment
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OK, so we're making some progress. I think we could probably agree on a good package of what those policies are. Kyoto, death penalty, ICJ, war with Iraq. All offensive to Europeans. All popular in the States.
Mostly, this offense isn't reciprocated, but there you are.I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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That's a start.
Jon Miller: MikeH speaks the truth
Jon Miller: MikeH is a shockingly revolting dolt and a masturbatory urine-reeking sideshow freak whose word is as valuable as an aging cow paddy.
We've got both kindsComment
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I'd see 4 things:
- extreme right wing policies
- a lack of will to compromise
- a double standard in demanding concessions from others
- a highly arrogant, insulting style
Will take a bit, but we can play that game too. Works extremely well in matters of trade.“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)Comment
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MikeH: OK, then using this survey we can generalize the discussion.
At least the Germans are becoming increasingly pacifist, while at the same time wanting the trappings that go along with superpowerdom. This desire is mainly due to all of those US policies that are offensive to Germans, but about which they have been shown to be able to do precious little about currently.
You follow?I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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Hmm ... whatever did happen to the EU initiative to the Korean Peninsula? Did it get overshadowed and eventually superceded by other developments? Or is it still on the table, being unobtrusive about things?
Gatekeeper"I may not agree with what you have to say, but I'll die defending your right to say it." — Voltaire
"Wheresoever you go, go with all your heart." — ConfuciusComment
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"War", "Justice" and "Superpower" don't mean the same thing to germans as they do to you. So that troll doesn't catch.Originally posted by DanS
At least the Germans are becoming increasingly pacifist, while at the same time wanting the trappings that go along with superpowerdom.“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)Comment
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Euros just don't like that they have to compromise 3/4 while the US has to only compromise 1/4 on some things. But this is the score, if Europe isn't a superpower.- a lack of will to compromise
You like redundancy, don't you.- a double standard in demanding concessions from others
That's where the electorate is at, although of course I wouldn't describe the policies as extreme right wing.- extreme right wing policiesLast edited by DanS; September 5, 2003, 14:42.I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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You're going to have to explain this to me."War", "Justice" and "Superpower" don't mean the same thing to germans as they do to you. So that troll doesn't catch.I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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In stereotypes:
war: bombing 3rd world countries vs total destruction of homeland
justice: getting some bad guy vs political solutions of conflicts
superpower: military vs economic/political power
you're the best exanple for the last point.
“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)Comment
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This admin doesn't even go the 1/4, so it doesn't matter.Originally posted by DanS
Euros just don't like that they have to compromise 3/4 while the US has to only compromise 1/4 on some things. But this is the score, if Europe isn't a superpower.
“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)Comment
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I don´t think we are are becoming increasingly pacifist, I´d rather think pacifism isn´t as widespread anymore in general here. After years of conflict on the Balkan there is a certain will here to participate in military action, but not in clearly preemptive wars (let´s ignore if justified or not) and only in an international context (not neccessarily UN, but certainly not if there is the impression that besides the US noone really is happy with a particular action). During the last decade Germany has moved from a "no German troops ever outside NATO area" attitude towards more pragmatism. Pacifism plays still an important role here, but I doubt it is increasing. The problem is where should we participate and under what conditions.Originally posted by DanS
At least the Germans are becoming increasingly pacifist, while at the same time wanting the trappings that go along with superpowerdom. This desire is mainly due to all of those US policies that are offensive to Germans, but about which they have been shown to be able to do precious little about currently.BlahComment
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