Kosovo

[VetLegion]

Pekka, de facto Kosovo already is an independant state. De iure it is still a part of Serbia.

The reason for this is international community is trying it's best to prevent violent changes of borders in the Balkans. There is great fear of domino effect any such change would cause.

You will notice after the Yugoslavian wars no borders were actually changed. For example, Serbs in Bosnia have an independant state but officially it is part of Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

EU is even trying to prevent Serbia - Montenegro splitup, which would be voluntary if it eventually happened.

So what will happen with Kosovo is it will be forced to stay part of Serbia on paper, but it will grow more and more independant.

Some hope that both Serbia, Macedonia and Kosovo will enter EU soon enough and that will help reduce nationalism and silence wishes for border changes.

The claims you hear every now and then from Serb politicians are just attempts to score political points on patriotism. Kosovo is over 90% Albanian and nothing they say or do can change that.

[Pekka]

I guess.. I just remember last time they had claims and started with the roadblocks. Maybe I was too quick to choke on my coffee, but I'll keep close eye to this anyway, it still sounds something that shouldn't be taken too lightly.

[VetLegion]

On the other hand it is not that Serbian feelings do not evoke sympathy too. Kosovo is full of their churches, monasteries and other national heritage. They lost an important battle against the Turks there, etc.

You can't cling to history though. Albanian self-governing rights are part of their human rights. Question is, could violence have been avoided by better treatment of Albanian majority in Kosovo?

Hard to say. Even if they weren't treated like second rate citizens under Milosevic, the situation there would be pretty volatile. They are still in a demographic boom unparalleled in europe. There are many young and unemployed people there, sounds like a stage for trouble.

Maybe even EU type treatment could not / can not make their wish for independant state dissapear.

Look at Basque, they can't really complain of their living standard and their liberties, but still they have a terrorist group that blows stuff up and kills people for independance. In EU no less, where borders are supposed to mean ****.

What I mean is, if people want independance - money, freedom, safety... sometimes none of these can convince them otherwise. I am not sure the wish is completely rational in that case, but it's there.

[Serb]

Great logic VL.
When SU collapsed over 50% of Latvian population were Russians, so in accordance with your aproach Russians who were born there and lived there for all their lives should have just thrown away Latvians and said too them- "we are majority of population here, so get the **** out".

In reality Russian were drown away.

[Serb]

Kosovo beliongs to Serbia.

[Pekka]

edited: what ever..

[Fidel]

kosovo...ummm

peka, nice try. try harder.
1) formally, kosovo is still a province of serbia. de facto, as already pointed out, it is under a UN protectorate
2) serbian and kosovo parliament occassionally make declarations that serve no practical purpose but quiet discontent among their consituencies
3) most of the serb really do not care any more about kosovo...its gang-ridden albanian disneyland, the land of no future and clever un expats who make money on someone else's misery. the only time anyone pays attention is when something horrible happens. 'horrible' by recent standards are not random killings of serb who remained there, but e.g. killing children who were swimming in a local river. they were in their early teens. this is actually a shift in albanian terrorist tactics, as their code of honor prohibits attacking children and women. obviously extremists within extremists are getting the upper hand.

now, next time you want to feel disgusted over something, try getting disgusted at those random killings. kosovo was a fifth avenue during milosevic in comparison with what it turned out to be now (i am talking about pre-war milosvic police state). so instead of keeping track of resolutions, try keeping track of a body count (as our friends do so dilligently in the ME thread).

[Pekka]

Yeah, Milosevich was such a nice man, wasn't he?
Afghanistan was pretty clean place when Taliban was in control. So what? I'm just saying, it doesn't matter what it was back in the days and what it is now to this conversation. At least not that way, or if it does or if I missed something, then you have to be more clear that I understand it as well.

[Dinner]

Re: kosovo...ummm

Originally posted by LaRusso
now, next time you want to feel disgusted over something, try getting disgusted at those random killings. kosovo was a fifth avenue during milosevic in comparison with what it turned out to be now (i am talking about pre-war milosvic police state). so instead of keeping track of resolutions, try keeping track of a body count (as our friends do so dilligently in the ME thread).

When I was in Kosovo my 8 man team was the first on the scene after a Priest and a nun were shot. It was horrible, with blood every where, but furtunately no one died. The fact is some people had their families killed and their houses destroyed and now they blame all Serbs for this and not just the ones who were guilty. It is sad because that sort of thinking will only lead to more violence but many people think that way.

[Fidel]

Originally posted by Pekka
Yeah, Milosevich was such a nice man, wasn't he?
Afghanistan was pretty clean place when Taliban was in control. So what? I'm just saying, it doesn't matter what it was back in the days and what it is now to this conversation. At least not that way, or if it does or if I missed something, then you have to be more clear that I understand it as well.

Well, since you have American flag on your avatar, lets include Afghanistan, Iraq and Kosovo in the whole picture. If you go to some place, declare that it is unfit to rule itself/under dictatorship/harboring terrorists/not free, then topple the government (or occupy a part of its territory), it is expected that you bring some peace and stability and actually lower the body count there. I subscribe to the view that less people dead should be on top of the agenda, there simply is nothing more valuable than human life (except, perhaps, oil....). Now look at those three places and telll me if there was any kind of success and improvement in any aspect since the days of anarchy/dictatorship/oppression.

[Dinner]

Kosovo was very safe the last time I was there. Random violence was not so common and robberies were very rare. LaRusso, you are taking a few exceptional cases and trying to pretend they are the norm when that simply is not the truth.

[Fidel]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Kosovo was very safe the last time I was there. Random violence was not so common and robberies were very rare. LaRusso, you are taking a few exceptional cases and trying to pretend they are the norm when that simply is not the truth.

i really do not know when you were there
but lets see
just last month the following happened in a province of less than 2 million
- a Serbian elderly fishes, is approached by Albanians who put a gun in his mouth and pull the trigger. He dies in a hospital following several operations
- two Serb boys are killed and several seriously wounded when swimming in a local river. When they were taken to the hospital, Albanian doctor puts a cask on the limbs that were shot and sends them home. Luckilly, they get chopper ride to Belgrade military hospital
- another incident....firefight between rival Albanian political party members (or shall I say gangsters) in Pristina cafe
- car of one of the most prominent Albanian "politicians" blown
- UNMIK policeman shot by a Serbian guy
- etc, etc, etc

I assume this is safe by Iraqi standards, but I am not sure those are the proper standards. I really do not know when was the time you patrolled there...
I really think we should get rid of Kosovo, but I have a sense of guilt for those Serbs living there (who admittedly are a bit mad but nevertheless have a right to live without being hunted down). As for Kosovars (or whatever they call themselves these days), their future state will be a joke. The only thing they are good at is erecting (no pun intended) statues of Bill Clinton all over the place...

[Dinner]

Run a similiar search on Moscow. You will find the same stuff. In fact run the same search for just about any place in the world with 2million inhabitents and if they're honest the same stuff will happen.

[Fidel]

you want to say that it is as bad in vermont?

[Dinner]

Does Vermont have 2 million people in it?