"Gay HS" reality check

[Asher]

Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
Society may open up to homosexuality eventually. That's great, but you are still leaving the good majority of people who are victimized behind and doing nothing about it.

I still don't understand this argument, because there's nothing we can do about it.

The school exists for the worst-case kids, the ones who can't stay in school because the problems are so bad.

It's not a situation where we create a school and suddenly don't care about treating gay people with respect in high schools. It's just an extra options for those most at risk for dropping out (or who have dropped out).

It's not replacing policies or anything like that, it's just another option. That's all.

I'd also love to hear your proposal on how we magically convert the affected schools to respect those kids in time for them to go back to school next year.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
I object to this because it is only done to help particular type of victim, while leaving the rest behind to suffer. Moreover, it isn't even clear if this will help all gay students- some will be reluctant to change schools, others will have homophobic parents unwilling to use this solution for them. Spend the money and bureucratic resources instead on making sure a safe envrionment to go to school is provided to ALL studnets. It won't happen magically or overnight, but it must be done.

I think perhaps you forgot the parts of the article where it speaks about all the DOZENS of special school programs in this city: your beliefe that ONLY gay students get this kind of aid is not only unsubstantiated, but runs counter to the evidence provided.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Asher

I'd also love to hear your proposal on how we magically convert the affected schools to respect those kids in time for them to go back to school next year.

Dear Asher,

While we oppose separate schools for people based on sexual orienation, we also acknowledge the reality that we cannot change things immediately.

Please stop distorting our arguments.

Sincerely,

MrFun

[Asher]

I'm not distorting, I'm just waking you up.

You insist these kids are not writeoffs, but then you also oppose a school where they can actually learn since we can't change all of the schools now.

Hello!

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Asher
I'm not distorting, I'm just waking you up.

You insist these kids are not writeoffs, but then you also oppose a school where they can actually learn since we can't change all of the schools now.

Hello!

As I ALREADY explained . . . . .

professional, sympathetic counselors replacing incompetent ignorant goons is part of the solution.


Let me know when you want me to reiterate AGAIN.

[C0ckney]

i went to an inner city school, until i was 13. basically the people who say you're not going to stop people being teased for being gay are dead right. gay is used as an insult by kids (i still use it and i'm 19 ffs!). i certainly don't think it's hardcore homophobia, just the fact that gay kids are different, and like any other different kids, eg. fat kids or thick kids, they're going to get the mickey taken out them.

[Asher]

Originally posted by MrFun
As I ALREADY explained . . . . .

professional, sympathetic counselors replacing incompetent ignorant goons is part of the solution.

Let me know when you want me to reiterate AGAIN.

You still don't get it.

You admit it takes time to "fix" this kind of stuff, meaning the kids in the system right now are screwed.

So there is an interim solution, a special school for those worse off with bullying (transgendered, transexual, etc) where they can still get the education they have a right to.

So basically you oppose this interim solution, while at the same time acknowledging it'll take a while for any solution to work (and I think yours, frankly, will never work). So what do we do with the kids currently in the system?

You insist they're a writeoff -- but you oppose the only solution put forward.

You need to think about this a bit.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Asher

You still don't get it.

You admit it takes time to "fix" this kind of stuff, meaning the kids in the system right now are screwed.

So there is an interim solution, a special school for those worse off with bullying (transgendered, transexual, etc) where they can still get the education they have a right to.

So basically you oppose this interim solution, while at the same time acknowledging it'll take a while for any solution to work (and I think yours, frankly, will never work). So what do we do with the kids currently in the system?

You insist they're a writeoff -- but you oppose the only solution put forward.

You need to think about this a bit.

That is part of the unfortunate phenomena of social progress -- some people will be left behind.

You see separate schools as some kind of instant solution??

[Asher]

Originally posted by MrFun
That is part of the unfortunate phenomena of social progress -- some people will be left behind.

So you admit they are writeoffs then, contrary to what you said before. Disgusting.

You see separate schools as some kind of instant solution??

Temporary solution? Absolutely! Have you not heard the success stories of this school that's been around since the mid-80s?

It's not separate schools as in, let's put the homos in one and heteros in the other. In fact, heteros are even allowed in Harvey Milk (God knows why they'd want to!).

It is absolutely a temporary solution to give those kids an education instead of writing them off as you're so eager to do.

[GePap]

There is absolutely nothing in the world that stops the NYC HS system from trying to get more sypathetic and better trained councellors WHILE having this program continue as it has for well over a decade. Can anyone argue with this point?

[orange]

Originally posted by Asher
I told people from the start that I think it's a good idea, a lot of kids just get sh*t from their immature classmates for being gay. For some people it gets bad enough that they have to drop out, or otherwise are academically and socially at a huge disadvantage over it.

Offering a school as a safe haven (I used those exact words before, too) is a good thing, and the people who try to stop it aren't being very sympathetic. A lot of them don't make a lot of sense, like saying it's the start of segregation again. Hello FUD, welcome.

But that IS a good point. Should white kids in the city say that they feel unsafe and that they're in the minority and that the other kids (blacks latinos whatever) assault them or give them a bad time and get a school to themselves? Being made fun of for being gay doesn't excuse his actions, though I am sympathetic that he did have to go through that.

On top of that is the issue of funding a segregated school with tax dollars if it's public (which I am still unsure if this is or is not a public school)

[Shi Huangdi]

Were you refering too:

"As the article states, NYC has separate HS programs for: immigrants, pregnant kids, Troubled children, special ed kids, and all girl schools."

While gays are not the only ones with seperate HS programs, they are the only ones with a specific high school for harrasment victims

If we wanted to do this program honestly, they should create seperate schools for ALL people who are repeat victims of severe bullying, gays are not the only ones who have learning disrupted due to school harassment. It's still a ****ty situation though to have people put away from mainstream society, and we should try harder to find alternatives to this solution.

[GePap]

Originally posted by orange
But that IS a good point. Should white kids in the city say that they feel unsafe and that they're in the minority and that the other kids (blacks latinos whatever) assault them or give them a bad time and get a school to themselves? Being made fun of for being gay doesn't excuse his actions, though I am sympathetic that he did have to go through that.

What many of these kids go through is far more than "being made fun of", which is why they have the triple suicide rate.

On top of that is the issue of funding a segregated school with tax dollars if it's public (which I am still unsure if this is or is not a public school)

Did you read the article? (which points to dozens of toehr schools in the NYC system which have special entry requirements?

[GePap]

Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
While gays are not the only ones with seperate HS programs, they are the only ones with a specific high school for harrasment victims

If we wanted to do this program honestly, they should create seperate schools for ALL people who are repeat victims of severe bullying, gays are not the only ones who have learning disrupted due to school harassment. It's still a ****ty situation though to have people put away from mainstream society, and we should try harder to find alternatives to this solution.

Only one problem with this: most kids who come under serious bullying can TRANSFER to other schools in the system, or to schools outside the system. Given the size of the problem, and the small size of harvey Milk, this school is a last chance for those for whom other possible solution do not exist, either becuase the problem is system-wide, or because they lack the resources or means to enter the other schools into which this is not a significant problem.

[Jac de Molay]

On top of that is the issue of funding a segregated school with tax dollars if it's public (which I am still unsure if this is or is not a public school)

Yeah, it's separate and it's public. But these are the 100-odd student who don't the have the luxury of time to ponder such business. When your face is getting smashed in on a daily basis, you need help NOW.

Personally, I would like them to expand the academy to include others so there's no stigma of segregation or whatever. That would probably be the best way to go.