Was the world a better place during the Cold War?

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Yugoslavia was a free society before.

When?

[Dinner]

Yugoslavia was most certainly not free. The only reason Yugoslavia didn't erupt into sectarian violence before the early 1990's is because Tito ruled with an iron fist and anyone who didn't espose Tito's brand of communism got "reeducated". BTW the US didn't start the Yugoslavian civil war and Bush Sr. let it go on for three years before he finally put an end to it. Kosovo was absolutely 100% justified in order to prevent Serbs cleansing yet another ethnic minority.

Afghanistan wasn't exactly or choice we had to respond to their terrorist attacks and we gave the Taliban several chances to hand over OBL in exchange for their continued existence. The only real unsupported offensive was Iraq and there things depend alot on your point of view.


Lastly, Kissinger made the right call in attacking the communist resupply routes in Loas and Camobia but he did it 6-7 years to late. You can't really say those countries were neutral when the VC used them as a training ground, resupply point, and base to attack from.

[Gatekeeper]

One thing I've read about the Cold War over and over again is that it was *unnatural* from the very beginning, in the sense that it forced nations into blocs, repressed natural ethnic tensions, and quelled other societal pressures.

What we're seeing today — more ethnic and religious conflict, struggles between the haves and have-nots — is actually supposed to be more representative of humanity than what we experienced during the Cold War.

Do I miss it? Most of the time. But there are certain times I wish the Soviet Union itself had remained intact — but Eastern Europe still freed from its dominion — because it might have been able to more effectively rein in the Islamic fundies who are now pretty much running amok in many of the SU's former southwestern Asian provinces. (Then again, Afghanistan proved that even the SU couldn't always keep the nutcases in check, particularly when they had the help of U.S. equipment and a government that took the route of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" w/o the foresight to see what might happen later ... Sept. 11, 2001.)

Gatekeeper

P.S. But, hey, with Red China rising fairly fast, maybe the good old two-superpower system will return w/i a few decades!

[Dinner]

I don't see a bi-polar world reemerging. Instead we're likely to return to the normal multipolar world with the EU, China, The US, and India being big players with Russia, Japan, Korea, and Brazil being large regional powers. 50 years from now it's going to be all about balance of power.

[Gatekeeper]

That could be interesting. Back to the set-up of the early 1900s!

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Yugoslavia was most certainly not free.

In the 1990s, there were reasonably free elections in Yugoslavia. If there weren't, how were pro-nationalist, seperatist majorities able to take control of Slovania, Croatia, Bosnia, etc.? If it wasn't free, it couldn't broken apart. I'm not saying it was completely free, but it wasn't the complete dictatorship we had spoon fed to us in the West. Even up to the very end, Milosevic was very popular.

There is little evidence that Yugoslavia was planning on ethnically cleansing the Kosovar Albanians. No mass graves have been found and the supposed massacre that Clinton used as a pretext turns out to have not been a massacre at all. Rather dead KLA fighters were displayed as if they had been massacred.

The reverse was true, however. The KLA was planning on expelling everyone else from Kosovo, and they have succeeded. Formerly 90% of the population, today they are 99% of the population. Even before civil war broke out there, my Jewish friends who had family in Kosovo were telling me about the Albanian terrorism that was going on. I discounted a lot of it as rumor, but there was something going on. Nor is it the fault of the Serbian government if the Albanian population pulled their children out of schools, refused to use the health clinics, etc. They made their own lives more miserable, then proclaimed they were being persecuted.

Afghanistan wasn't exactly or choice we had to respond to their terrorist attacks and we gave the Taliban several chances to hand over OBL in exchange for their continued existence.

I'm not arguing that. Imran said they were more free, that's all I disputed. As far s I'm concerned, Afganistan aided and abetted a massacre in the United States. I did not oppose the war, just how it was conducted. I am also very disappointed with the post-war conduct, as it doesn't seem to be doing much to turn Afganistan into the kind of place where terrorists won't be able to base themselves.

Lastly, Kissinger made the right call in attacking the communist resupply routes in Loas and Camobia but he did it 6-7 years to late. You can't really say those countries were neutral when the VC used them as a training ground, resupply point, and base to attack from.

We were in Laos from the very begining, almost as long as we were in Vietnam. We were there to fight the Pathet Lao, not stop the meager supplies headed to the South. The later was the reason we invaded Cambodia, and that so badly destabilized the military dicatorship that we had installed there that it fell only a few years later to the Khmer Rouge. Not a good call.

[chequita guevara]

Anyway, Vietnam was an illegitimate war, so anything done to further it was likewise illegitimate.

[Serb]

Originally posted by delmar


Indeed... I hope you are joking.

The only thing you need to know about these communist regimes is that they tried to kill their citizens who attempted to leave the country. That says it all, IMHO.

Unfortunatelly most of my knowledge about SU based on my own experience, not on such great source as Hollywood movies.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

What did we have during just last 4 years? Yugoslavia, Aghanistan and Iraq.

The only problem? I bet the people of those three countries will have a freer life (Yugoslavia is now a more democratic society, Afghanistan's women can now actually function in society, and Iraq will probably have some democracy in the future), unlike in the Cold War, where dictatorships were favored.

Yep, sure I guess Serbs are very happy about American bombardments.
http://grid.ecoinfo.ru/webint_eng/ba....htm#HIROSHIMA - EIGHT TIMES

Do you need photos of "happy" Iraqis?

[Dinner]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
[Q] Originally posted by Oerdin
There is little evidence that Yugoslavia was planning on ethnically cleansing the Kosovar Albanians. No mass graves have been found and the supposed massacre that Clinton used as a pretext turns out to have not been a massacre at all. Rather dead KLA fighters were displayed as if they had been massacred.

The UCK (KLA) was a rabidly nationalist group of that there could be no doubt. However there were mass graves. As a KFOR soldier I saw UN experts excavating a mass grave near Mugila in the Iron Triangle (an area which is not far for what is now Camp Bondsteel).

[Serb]

Originally posted by Oerdin
You can always count on Serb.

Any time.

[Serb]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Why the " " marks?

Because it was a quote, smartass.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Oerdin
The UCK (KLA) was a rabidly nationalist group of that there could be no doubt. However there were mass graves. As a KFOR soldier I saw UN experts excavating a mass grave near Mugila in the Iron Triangle (an area which is not far for what is now Camp Bondsteel).

And yet not one single news article back in the states crowing about how they finally found the evidence? The FBI left Kosovo without finding a single mass grave and the Spanish team the UN had in there left saying, there are no mass graves here. Ultimately, they had to define mass grave as: any grave with more than one body.

Now it's true, they did find quite a few graves with as many as ten bodies or so. Few of them showed signs of execution or toture, which would be consistant with a campaign of genocide. Most of the bodies appeared to have been buried, not in secret by Serbian forces, but rather by families. Being poor and in the middle of a war zone, they tended to be efficient with their holes and people would put multiple people in one grave, bury them, and then get back under cover.

Many of those uncovered were killed by bomb schrapnel, some died of old age. Others were killed in battles with Serbian police and the Yugoslav army (people like to forget that there was a war going on there). Some were executed, no doubt, by both sides. If, however, there was a evidence of a campgain of ethnic cleansing in Kosovo, however, we would expect to see added charges against Milosevic. AFAIK, he's only being tried about what happened in Bosnia and Croatia (could be wrong about that, though).

Of course, maybe the Serbs took all the bodies of the people they executed back to Serbia. Why then, hasn't the post-Milosevic government produced them to further delegitimize the previous government?

[Dinner]

Yes, there were but they bodies number dozens and not hundreds like in Bosnia. Several were found. Another favorite Serb trick was to surround Albanian towns and give the people one hour to leave or they said they'd kill them. As the people left they were robbed, their identy papers were taken away, and there were several cases of rape. After the towns were looted the homes were blown up just to make sure the Albanians didn't come back. Another favorite trick was to mine the border areas and then tell the refugees they could either run across the mine field or be shot. Most choice to take their chances with the mine field.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
I'm not talking about Tito's era. Why don't you ask the Albanians, Bosnians, Croats whether they were free under Milosevic?

Why don't you ask the Serbs or Christians how are they living in Kosovo now(a land which rightfully belongs to Serbs) under an occupation of Albanian religious fanatics.
Oh wait a minute, there are few of them left in Kosovo. Most of them ran away or were slain by your beloved freedom fighters.

Most of which will be restored when the infrastructure gets up and running.

Don't make me laugh. Sure, USA always take care about its slaves and as long as Iraqis oil industry will be privatized by US compaines and yanks will start to f*ck-up Iraqis land pumping out everything that has value, Iraqis will live much better, right?