Just when I hould be celibrating the rug gets pulled out.

[notyoueither]

...or centre.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by notyoueither
As for other advice... get a lawyer. I employ people. I am vaguely familiar with labour practices where I am. I can guarantee you that the way you were handled would send off red lights if you were here. I can't believe CA would be that different.

From the 1970's to the mid 1980's, 1 out of every 5 employment terminations (for any reason that the employer initiated) ended up in litigation. The result was a huge decisional law and legislative backlash, and California now is very conservative on labor law issues, as is most of the western US outside of Oregon.

Most of the major issues (implied contracts, implied terms of employment, breach of good faith by employer) have been completely disposed of by the state Supreme Court, so getting a lawyer above an ambulance chaser to even offer to do more than write a nasty letter is a real trick. And even the ambulance chasers don't like labor cases, because they're hard work for a low probability of pay.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by notyoueither
What? You people put up with that shiet? Termination with no notice or compensation in lieu?

I guess the Democrats really are far right of our left.

The courts have dealt with it, and the state already taxes the hell out of employers, so changing the laws around more gets dicey.

California does have minimum wage above the Federal minimum, but in the US, labor law has long recognized that the employee is free to leave at any time, for any reason, without regard to the convenience of the employer, so the employer has similar rights to terminate at will.

The thing about severance is that companies may, and often do, offer it as a voluntary part of their policies, but they aren't obligated to do so.

[notyoueither]

In Oerdin's case, the nasty letter might have the desired effect, if it gets the higher ups to notice what the a-hole did. That's what I'd shoot for.

A good case for wrongful dismisal can be very hard to make. Maybe it's there, maybe it's not. Getting a-hole fired would be my goal.

[Pekka]

Definitely. Get back to the a-hole. If not in the form of a letter, I'd strongly suggest a parking lot meeting.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
The thing about severance is that companies may, and often do, offer it as a voluntary part of their policies, but they aren't obligated to do so.

Wow. I have only tried to withhold severance in one case. The guy was insubordinate, and had destroyed company property. In the end, I had to pay severance. Not much, two weeks, but it choked to have to sign that cheque.

[Asher]

nye: In Alberta, is it law to give 2 weeks (as employee or employer), or just a courtesy guideline?

[notyoueither]

It's the law, after the person has been with the company for 90 days. It goes up with time in. Not a lot, but some.

Some industries get around it. Restaurants and bars get around it by writing people off the schedule. They don't fire you, you just get no hours. So it is not great protection if you are hourly and scheduled.

If you are salaried or work a fixed schedule it is iron clad. Like I said, I had to write a cheque to a guy who destroyed company property because no one was an eye witness to the fact. Well, duh!

[Dinner]

Well, I called my father. I was little drunk when I spoke with him but he was really understanding. Honestly, it makes me feel worse that they are so understanding. I realy feel like I am partially to blame like if I had kissed the right ass I would still have a job and it is my fault.

Still, I'm going to call the unemployment office tommorow and registar with them. It won't be much but it should pay rent and for food. I do have about $10k saved up whic I was going to use to as a down payment for a house but one of my friends who just graduated with an MS in Engineering and who hasn't found a job yet has asked me to go on vacation to South America with him. Maybe just taking a break and going to PEru is what I need.

[notyoueither]

Employees are expected to return the favour by giving notice, as a courtesy. They are under no legal obligation to do so.

[Asher]

nye: Thanks!

Oerdin: It's not your fault, and your father recognizes that. He loves you regardless of your situations.

A vacation would be nice, but don't blow all your savings on that. You may need the money.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Well, I called my father. I was little drunk when I spoke with him but he was really understanding. Honestly, it makes me feel worse that they are so understanding. I realy feel like I am partially to blame like if I had kissed the right ass I would still have a job and it is my fault.

Still, I'm going to call the unemployment office tommorow and registar with them. It won't be much but it should pay rent and for food. I do have about $10k saved up whic I was going to use to as a down payment for a house but one of my friends who just graduated with an MS in Engineering and who hasn't found a job yet has asked me to go on vacation to South America with him. Maybe just taking a break and going to PEru is what I need.

It sounds like this is very far from your fault. You should feel no shame. On the bright side, you now have experience in your field. Getting another job should not be too hard.

Keep Canada in mind if the hunt down there does not pan out. There are many companies needing geologists, especially the oil industry, and getting a work permit is supposed to be very easy. Just gets a little chilly from time to time.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by notyoueither
In Oerdin's case, the nasty letter might have the desired effect, if it gets the higher ups to notice what the a-hole did. That's what I'd shoot for.

A good case for wrongful dismisal can be very hard to make. Maybe it's there, maybe it's not. Getting a-hole fired would be my goal.

It's tough to even get the shyster lawyers to write a letter without paying for it, though.

Let me give you an example:

I had a friend with an eight-year employment history at the company that shafted her, and eight years of reviews as the top overall employee in a department that varied from 13 people to 18 employees plus 15 temps. She went out on a company approved unpaid disability leave due to an MS attack and onset of fibromyalgia. The seven previous year of her employment, the company had a written policy that unpaid medical or disability leaves could be up to one year. The last year she worked there, the policy was changed to 16 weeks, but the company could, if it decided to in it's sole discretion, extend to a year. When she went out, she filed for disability insurance, but they directed her to worker's comp, since she said that she'd complained about workstation ergonomics and all the company did was swap her chair with someone else's, while they were all working 55 hour weeks (as they did every summer when they were publishing new editions of their manuals).

She files the worker's comp claim, as directed by the private disability insurer (who denied her on the basis that the injury was work related).

In her medical history, which she gave honestly, she admitted to being on prescribed antidepressents intermittently since her onset of MS, primarily as a result of fatigue and depression related to the MS. (never mind this didn't prevent her from being the top evaluated employee in her department every single year.)

She was also having what appeared to be her second MS attack in seven years.

She was directed to worker's comp because her primary complaint was partial loss of mobility of one shoulder, with accompanying muscle spasms, and chronic severe pain in the upper back and shoulder.

So what kind of doc does the worker's comp insurer refer her to? A shrink, who also exclusively sees worker's comp claimants, exclusively as a contractor to worker's comp insurers. So the shrink decides she has "a case of sour grapes" and "a negative attitude" but no disability - despite the fact he has no medical qualification to make any finding as to the type of injury she has.

She gets denied worker's comp, so I help her file a complaint with the state worker's comp appeals board, on the grounds that the insurer never examined the injury claimed as the cause of work disability, the doc who did the examination was unqualified in the requisite medical specialty, and was overtly biased and professionally inappropriate in his "examination."

Meanwhile, the 16 weeks unpaid leave runs out, she's doing better, but not able to go back to work (per the directive of her regular doc). She requests an extension of the unpaid disability leave for three more weeks, and it's summarily denied, but they don't notify her until the second to last day of the sixteen weeks - they sit on the written notice until she calls, then claim they thought she was going to come back and pick it up. They also say that since she filed a workers comp claim, even though the insurance quack denied it, she needs a signoff from a worker's comp insurer approved doc that she's ready to return to work before they'll allow her to report back. She finds this out on a Thursay afternoon, because they sit on a notice for two weeks and she has to have this in hand on a Monday morning, from an insurance approved doc?

Monday morning comes, she obviously couldn't get the approval in time, she calls HR first thing, and she's told that she has been terminated from employment, as the department she is working in is reducing permanent staff by one. This despite the fact that they still have half a dozen temps and are working some OT?

First WCAB (worker's comp appeal board) appeal is successful, and pretty quick. She gets a state-ordered exam by another insurance doc, but this one's an orthopedist who specializes in shoulder injuries. Despite being an insurance doc, he writes up a report that it's his opionion that the injury is work-related, that the disability is likely to be permanent, and that the combination of chronic pain and inoperable loss of mobility adds up to a 14% partial permanent disability. So far, so good, right?

Workers comp insurance comes back with a decision that they'll cover the medical expense, reimburse the state for state disability, but pay nothing for retraining or long term disability, as their disability employment consultant has dertermined that there are part time jobs in the national economy for one-armed graphic artists. WTF??????

So, it's off to WCAB appeal round two, and this time, several of those helpful folks from the state are downright nasty, although some are cool. It's also wrongful discharge time, because there's enough factual holes in the discharge to drive a truck through. (another employee from another department with less tenure and lower performance reviews granted a disability extension, reduction in permanent staff only in her department, only by one employee, but while there are still temps and people working OT, visible change in treatment from supervisors once she filed a worker's comp claim).

On the wrongful discharge side, of 22 lawyers we talked to, only three would do initial consultation without charge, the rest weren't even interested in discussing it. All three of those turned out to be BS game players, one that talked a good game wrote a little letter that went from HR to their corporate counsel, and then played games with "expenses" including his time before litigation - that the contingency only applied if there was a suit, or a settlement prior to suit, but once the company's lawyers told him to shove it, my friend owed for his time and expense. That went to the State Bar of California for a professional ethics complaint. The Bar did nothing officially, but the payment hustle went away and he released his files.

The end result of this was that she netted some $7,500 and further medical care on the Worker's Comp Appeal Side, and went absolutely nowhere on the wrongful discharge side, despite a ton of "soft" (i.e. not sufficient in a legal sense) evidence that she was retaliated against for the worker's comp filing.

This is typical of state labor law now - I've been involved on both sides of several labor law and discharge issues. Unless there is an obvious, airtight case of illegal discrimination or retaliation, you're just SOL.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Well, I called my father. I was little drunk when I spoke with him but he was really understanding. Honestly, it makes me feel worse that they are so understanding. I realy feel like I am partially to blame like if I had kissed the right ass I would still have a job and it is my fault.

The question is, do you want to be in a position where you're dealing with miserable SOB's like that, and you have to constantly figure out which is the right ass to kiss and how they like it kissed? Professionally, you're better off in the long run not to associate with such losers.

Still, I'm going to call the unemployment office tommorow and registar with them. It won't be much but it should pay rent and for food. I do have about $10k saved up whic I was going to use to as a down payment for a house but one of my friends who just graduated with an MS in Engineering and who hasn't found a job yet has asked me to go on vacation to South America with him. Maybe just taking a break and going to Peru is what I need.

Registering with unemployment is good, but you have to really think about your situation and prospects before I'd recommend the vacation.

[notyoueither]

That storey sucks to hear, Michael, but it's not directly equivalent is it?

Here, Oerdin does everything he is told, gets the supervisor to agree to what he is doing, then gets blamed for the supervisor's incompetence by the supervisor as way of covering ass (that sounds like it to me).

He is not dealing with the sharks that run a company and who want to abuse a diabled or ill employee, he is dealing with a middle management disaster and would be doing the firm a favour by getting that to the attention of the directors of the company. Not to mention that if there are grounds for wrongful dismisal, which to me it sounds like it, then he could come out of it with some compensation.

At the bottom line, the a-hole gave faulty instructions, in an inappropriate manner, and then deprived Oerdin of employment as a consequence of the failure of the project. I'd be looking for a lawyer to sue that sucker personally for whatever I could find to sue him for. Naming the company also would just speed along the misery for that individual.

At least, if I wanted either revenge or redress, and I would, that is what I would do.