Raped by the system

[Japher]

Well, this is why rape should be a capital offense and he should of been hanged 3 years ago...

[Traianvs]

Originally posted by Dissident


yep, that's me . That's why I'm neither a conservative nor a liberal. I consider myself a moderate. I lean one way on some issues, and the other way on other issues.

As for supporting the 3 strikes law- well 3 might be a little too harsh. But it coincides with out national pastime of baseball . And I don't support all the crimes encompassed by the 3 strikes law. Even violent crimes like assault aren't that bad and probably shouldn't be included. All drug laws of course shouldn't be included. But when you are talking about rape, murder, attempted murder, child abuse of any kind. Then yes these people should be locked away. You could say many of these people get life sentences anyways. You'd be suprised how many get out and commit more crimes.

Funny thing in Belgium liberals are actually seen as people who are positioned a bit to the right of the political centre Then again we are quite a social state and our opinions differ greatly from yours...

Another funny something is that I have the impression that in the US all you need is a good expensive lawyer to get you out of trouble, guilty or not; if you can't afford such lawyer, you're f00ked . I'm intrigued, these expensive lawyers.. how do they win their cases then? I'd be tempted to say they know people in high places and know how be "diplomatic" with the judge or...?
Because after all, every lawyer who passes his exams knows how the legal system works so... heheh

[yavoon]

Originally posted by Trajanus


Funny thing in Belgium liberals are actually seen as people who are positioned a bit to the right of the political centre Then again we are quite a social state and our opinions differ greatly from yours...

Another funny something is that I have the impression that in the US all you need is a good expensive lawyer to get you out of trouble, guilty or not; if you can't afford such lawyer, you're f00ked . I'm intrigued, these expensive lawyers.. how do they win their cases then? I'd be tempted to say they know people in high places and know how be "diplomatic" with the judge or...?
Because after all, every lawyer who passes his exams knows how the legal system works so... heheh

no. in a competitive system like the US courts skill matters. high priced lawyers are just the more skilled. u could also go the insurance company way and get lots of lesser paid lawyers and throw mountains of documents at the other side.

[DanielXY]

Yes, in a trial I "visited" myself I was actually surprised how much this all is a big show, and how much polemic both sides and even the judge throw around (hint: if you ever saw staged trials in a movie or something. there is much more show in the real thing... ). My lawyer (a free one ) finally won the contest Even so the trial was in germany, where supposdly everything goes by the letter of the law ... I cant imagine how it would be in a land like US

[yavoon]

Originally posted by DanielXY
Yes, in a trial I "visited" myself I was actually surprised how much this all is a big show, and how much polemic both sides and even the judge throw around (hint: if you ever saw staged trials in a movie or something. there is much more show in the real thing... ). My lawyer (a free one ) finally won the contest Even so the trial was in germany, where supposdly everything goes by the letter of the law ... I cant imagine how it would be in a land like US

thats a lot of smilies.

[DanielXY]

Yes and everyone has a purpose! Help the unemployed smilies! Hire more!

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by Dissident
People are in prison because they broke the law. They belong there (except for the drug offenders- we need to cancel the war on drugs imho)

We have a higher % than other countries because our country is a beacon for criminals and criminal behaviour. It is glamourized in every single movie made and most tv shows.

and harsh punishment may not decrease the need to commit crimes. But if the guy is in jail, he cannot commit other crimes against people

What do do after 25 years? Well it was my belief the 3 strikes law puts them away for life. You don't let repeat violent criminals out and they won't commit more crimes. It's just that easy.

I think this is absolutely wrong.
Even in Jail those Criminals may be able to commit Crimes. I think of the "Rape in Jail" - Thread we had a week ago.
And I think the most violent Criminals will also be those inmates, who are highest on the Pecking Order within the Prison and so won´t be the people who are frequently raped and abused, but will be those who rape abuse and oppress other Inmates. So it may not be a really bad experience for them.

Lowest on the Pecking Order will probably be those people who didn´t commit violent crimes and maybe short term Prisoners who just have to spent for some months or a year in Prison and so these people often will be the ones for which the Experience in Prison is the horriblest thing.

Oh and as for false Rape accusations:
I think even if it is just a number of 10-20 % of all Rape accusations which lead to an innocent being incarcerations, it is still a numbr which is much too high.
After all it is a serious crime and for those people who are innocently found guilty of rape their Life as they have known before is all over, as they very probably loose their Job, and could also become an Outcast among their Friends and their former neighbours (and probably loose their wife/girlfriend).
And even if their Innocence is proven and they get free from Prison, it could still be difficult for them to find a Job again, as any potential new employers probably will learn about their time in jail and even if those people will say they were in it innocently, many managers might think otherwise and don´t employ them because of the Stigma of the former Jail Sentence.
Especially if it is a job, where you have to be a representative of the company.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Dissident
yep, that's me . That's why I'm neither a conservative nor a liberal. I consider myself a moderate. I lean one way on some issues, and the other way on other issues.

Yeah, that's why a lot of people (or maybe it's just me ) like you - you aren't extremist, and you are pretty calm.

As for supporting the 3 strikes law- well 3 might be a little too harsh. But it coincides with out national pastime of baseball . And I don't support all the crimes encompassed by the 3 strikes law. Even violent crimes like assault aren't that bad and probably shouldn't be included. All drug laws of course shouldn't be included. But when you are talking about rape, murder, attempted murder, child abuse of any kind. Then yes these people should be locked away. You could say many of these people get life sentences anyways. You'd be suprised how many get out and commit more crimes.

In fact, I think three strikes is too many. How hard is it to understand that something is illegal? After being convicted once, you should know VERY WELL that something is illegal... what's the excuse?

[realpolitic]

Originally posted by Dissident

We have a higher % than other countries because our country is a beacon for criminals and criminal behaviour. It is glamourized in every single movie made and most tv shows.

and harsh punishment may not decrease the need to commit crimes. But if the guy is in jail, he cannot commit other crimes against people

What do do after 25 years? Well it was my belief the 3 strikes law puts them away for life. You don't let repeat violent criminals out and they won't commit more crimes. It's just that easy.

What do you think attracts criminals to the US? Hollywood "culture" has spread around the world. My hometown has lots of tourists from Europe, and they say American movies & media are everywhere. As for being a "beacon", I think most criminals here are born in the US. The California budget crisis is exasperated by the 3 strikes law. In my hometown. there is a huge county jail, while college classes are reduced, the library is rarely open, mass transit stinks, and there streets are full of potholes. The only funding Gov. Davis increased was to expand Death Row. His greatest contributors were the "Correction Officers Union".

Those 2 million US prisoners are 25% of the total for the world. That's got to represent some bad policy. "Bowling for Columbine" was an excellent expose' on why America is so violent, I highly recommend it.


In America 80% of all crimes are drug related, and even some cops http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=16618
are saying the drug war is a bust.

[Kuciwalker]

The solution to the money problem is to make them do PROFITABLE work...

[yavoon]

Originally posted by realpolitic


What do you think attracts criminals to the US? Hollywood "culture" has spread around the world. My hometown has lots of tourists from Europe, and they say American movies & media are everywhere. As for being a "beacon", I think most criminals here are born in the US. The California budget crisis is exasperated by the 3 strikes law. In my hometown. there is a huge county jail, while college classes are reduced, the library is rarely open, mass transit stinks, and there streets are full of potholes. The only funding Gov. Davis increased was to expand Death Row. His greatest contributors were the "Correction Officers Union".

Those 2 million US prisoners are 25% of the total for the world. That's got to represent some bad policy. "Bowling for Columbine" was an excellent expose' on why America is so violent, I highly recommend it.


In America 80% of all crimes are drug related, and even some cops http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=16618
are saying the drug war is a bust.

well now that u consider bowling for columbine accurate u basically flushed ur opinion down the toilet.

[Ned]

I think we need a law that says a prosecutor cannot bring a case without corroboraton. Additionally, there should be no arrest unless the prosecutor decides to file a charge.

The problem here is out-of-control prosecutors.

[Ned]

This reminds me of a incident in Dakota County Minnesota back in the '80s. It began with the arrest of day care owner, IIRC, on the word of a drugged out criminal who was trying to give information to reduce his sentence. It then spread to up to 40 other people in this small town as the prosecutor, a woman, explained that "children" do not lie prior to making the arrests based solely on the increasingly bizzare tales of very young kids. At some point in time, the prosecutor began searching local swamps for murder victims, which the kids reported the elders did to keep them silent. When they found nothing, ordinary people began calling for a halt to the arrests and trials. Later, the person who made the first accusation admitted that he lied to get his sentenced reduced.

The woman prosecutor was soon fired and those arrested released. But then the lawsuits began, and there were worries that the small town would soon be bankrupt.

All this because of some madwoman prosecutor.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Dissident
But women life less often, but the lies are the biggest. Like lying about a man being the father of their baby.

Cuz men never lie about things like oh say, Iraq buying uranium or having chemical weapons or the company being financially solvent when it's secretly morgaged to the hilt or saying that this product is completely safe when it's killing people.



You know why women never post in the OT anymore. It's because of y'all's utter hatred of them.

[blackice]

I agree Ned that certainly is one reason.

The use of false allegations in divorce is rapidly becoming an epidemic which is spreading throughout the world. According to the National Shared Parenting Association (Saskatchewan Chapter), in Canada a Children's Aid Society study showed that of 1200 complaints of abuse, 900 involved custody disputes. Of those 900 allegations, two thirds (600) were found to be false.

Divorce laws and custody laws I do believe account for a whole lot more. Now this CAS from Sask. Is quite the picture. In most other CAS centers men such as myself lose custody of thier children for reporting abuse to thier children 95%. I am then not counted in the abuse senerio as reporting a victim but creating one for the positive side....

How hard is it to think 60% is out of the question over all? I am not the greatest at math but if only 15% of the remaining 300 are false does that not hit about 60% over all or more are false?

http://www.backlash.com/content/gender/1999/8-aug99/aust0899.html

Child abuse stats. as Ned gave an example to, are about are the same at 75%. In both countries.

These CPS workers often ask leading questions which can distort the children's memories. In their reports to the court, they often ignore evidences that would clear the accused, such as lie detector tests and outside therapist evaluations and rely solely on the child's evaluations which have been skewed by the CPS and the therapists that they recommend. In a report disseminated by the National Center on Child Abuse and Neglect (NCCAN) Child Maltreatment 1995 Reports From the States to the National Child Abuse and Neglect Data System depicts more than three million reports of alleged child abuse and neglect in 1995 of which two million of those complaints were without foundation.

Money is ovbiously another reason, the system creates a problem we pay for....Raped by the system... It's a friggin industry a money machine...These are old stats. too according to the web reports since 95 have gone up 100% or more.

During custody battles, there is a growing trend of one parent alleging abuse by the other parent. Before 1973, Child abuse was rarely reported to authorities and often it was covered up. In 1963, reports of suspected child abuse was 160,000 but between 1976 and 1993, the total yearly number of child abuse reports grew from 669,000 to over 2.9 million after the child abuse protection legislation that Senator Mondale sponsored.

The passing of this legislation has also resulted in the increase of allegations of child abuse in divorce battles. In 1975, thirty five percent of all child abuse reports were unsubstantiated, but by 1993, that percentage sky-rocketed to sixty six percent. In divorce, when allegations are made and the police conduct investigations, ninety seven percent of these claims are unable to be substantiated.

It is obvious that many allegations of abuse which are reported in divorce situations are false and ninety five percent of those accusers are women. With the high amount of divorces, the percentage of those divorces which abuse is reported, and the percentage of which are unsubstantiated, it shows that children are being used as pawns to hurt or destroy the other parent. These false allegations of abuse, even if proven to be false, can ruin someone's life and have a devastating effect on the children.

New laws like the proposed bill c-22 in Canada state

"the Bill calls for a violence claim or a perceived fear of violence claim held only to a “balance of probabilities”standard rather than to “Beyond any Reasonable Doubt” as determining factor is another incentive to increase the already high number of false allegations of domestic violence or sexual abuse."

So no longer beyond a reasonable doubt....greasing the machine...