Rugby - See You In Ten!

[Frozzy]

Originally posted by Andydog
How could you Frozzy??

Easy. The margin was far too high, IMO.

And it paid dividends, too

[Frozzy]

Originally posted by Caligastia
Yes, it was a real battle tonight. A great competition between the forwards. The Boks' defence was very well organized, and kept NZ on the back foot.

SA defence was definately organised and on par. Especially around the ruck and maul area.

Agreed. I think it would have been a very different game if Jack had been on from the beginning.

True, but I though Marty Holah had a great game. Shame there isn't three flanking spots.

I think the answer, as you say, is to stop playing musical chairs. The players are there, it's just a matter of putting the right combination together. Mitchell should have more than enough data to enable him to do that by now.

This is precisely the Springbok's problem. They haven't had one consistent squad for two games in 10 years. It is very unsettling if your side keeps changing every game.

Overall I think the ref had a pretty decent night. There was one or two bad calls though, like calling a knock-on when Carlos clearly knocked it back. The other thing that puzzles me is that before Carlos went for the catch a Bok tackled a player without the ball and nothing was done about it. Do you remember the passage of play I'm talking about?

I do. I thought the touch judge was Tapa Henning the amount of times he was making calls for Peter Marshall. Annoying accent, too, had Peter.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Frozzy


SA defence was definately organised and on par. Especially around the ruck and maul area.

And they didn't give away stupid penalties, didn't get themselves yellow carded, and, on the whole, looked for the ball rather than the man. Which rather underlines what a suicidal brand of rugby their usual style is.

I do. I thought the touch judge was Tapa Henning the amount of times he was making calls for Peter Marshall.

Yes, the touchies saved Marshall's bacon quite a few times.

Annoying accent, too, had Peter.

Isn't it a shocker? If I had that in my ear for eighty minutes, and if I were a Bok reserve lock, I could be the first player cited for biting a ref.

BTW, where was McCaw? Injured? Having a rest?

So, Frozzy, nominate your preferred starting AB pack?

[Frozzy]

Hooker: Mark Hammett
Prop: Somerville, Hoeft
Lock: Williams, Jack
Flankers: McCaw, Thorne
No. 8: Jerry Collins

The key to the AB pack is bringing on Brad Thorn, Kees Meeuws and Keven Mealamu at the right time. They can be devestating with fresh legs in the latter stages of the game, especially Meeuws and Mealamu. Although, I'd love to see Marty Holah in there somewhere

[finbar]

Originally posted by Frozzy
Hooker: Mark Hammett
Prop: Somerville, Hoeft
Lock: Williams, Jack
Flankers: McCaw, Thorne
No. 8: Jerry Collins

I don't think it's the strongest AB pack of all time but it's about the best available. Which of the hookers is the best lineout thrower? It strikes me they're both fairly erratic.

The key to the AB pack is bringing on Brad Thorn, Kees Meeuws and Keven Mealamu at the right time. They can be devestating with fresh legs in the latter stages of the game, especially Meeuws and Mealamu. Although, I'd love to see Marty Holah in there somewhere

Yes, Meeuws has turned himself into a bit of a super sub. He's scored a few tries recently in that role. But I'm sorry, I honestly don't think Thorn is up to Test class, even as a sub.

[Frozzy]

Originally posted by finbar
I don't think it's the strongest AB pack of all time but it's about the best available. Which of the hookers is the best lineout thrower? It strikes me they're both fairly erratic.

They are the best we have. Hammett is "consistent", Mealamu is pretty good, and can run from the base of the lineout pretty well.

Yes, Meeuws has turned himself into a bit of a super sub. He's scored a few tries recently in that role. But I'm sorry, I honestly don't think Thorn is up to Test class, even as a sub.

I'm surprised Keith Robinson isn't given another go, or Simon Maling for that matter.

[finbar]

Yes, Simon Maling earned a mention from the commentators last night. Was he Jack's partner prior to Williams? I've been trying to recall Jacks' ex-partner but the name has escaped me.

[Frozzy]

Norm Maxwell?

[finbar]

That rings a bell.

[Frozzy]

He had an average season for the Crusaders, and with Williams having a blinding S12, it's no surprise why he's there at the moment. He really rose up on Saturday.

[Havak]

We get the original imported.

Then it is worth drinking.

Masochist.

The irony is I nearly put a few gold on the Boks out of bloody mindedness.

The ABs' backline was entitled to have an off night. Everyone has one now and then.

Yes thats true – but here is the thing for me, the AB backs seem to need a very narrow set of conditions (fair weather, firm surface) to ‘turn it on’. Any deviation from that and they let themselves down. It’s a real problem for them.

That is to take nothing away from the Boks who did exactly what is needed against the ABs – they took them on up front, maintained the pressure and didn’t give the ABs time to settle into their natural game. We are very much starting to see a pattern wherby the ABs are awesome in particular circumstances – and mediocre outside those narrow parameters. Actually that’s maybe a little unfair as both sides workrates were very good and the defence at times was superb – but the ABs are not the finished article yet – nor are they dead certs the bookies make them for the RWC in my mind (I still say watch them sneaky Aussies)

The Bok number 8 incidentally once again looked the class player in his position – Collins is big, strong and impressive carrying ball forward - but he doesn’t get himself on the ball anywhere near enough.

Krige of course has taken great heart from the game and feels it means they can take on England in the pool game. It means no such thing of course - but as long as he is happy thinking that…

The moment of the game for me – Chris Jack comes on and the Kiwi co-commentator is almost wetting himself with excitement and says “if you were making a list of the best locks in the world he is right there at the top”. There is then a brief pregnant pause and he follows his own comment with “Of course Martin Johnson might just have a claim there too”. Well, quite.

Agreed. I think it would have been a very different game if Jack had been on from the beginning.

How so? It wasn’t particularly different after he came on although I did enjoy his skills in that ball stealing episode.

Interesting isn’t it that the ABs also parallel the Wallabies in that their main weakness seems to be the front row?

[ravagon]

Originally posted by Havak

The moment of the game for me – Chris Jack comes on and the Kiwi co-commentator is almost wetting himself with excitement and says “if you were making a list of the best locks in the world he is right there at the top”. There is then a brief pregnant pause and he follows his own comment with “Of course Martin Johnson might just have a claim there too”. Well, quite.

I'm in a state of total shock that you brought this up.

Interesting isn’t it that the ABs also parallel the Wallabies in that their main weakness seems to be the front row?

This one too.

And I believe you may owe that Carlos chap an apology for mercilessly slandering his kicking not so long ago?



It seems that the Boks keep the 'Biffo' for the Wallabies and save the rugby for the All-Blacks. If they'd played like that last week the outcome could've been decidedly different.
All-in-all I think thats about the best possible result for the AB's. It'll bring them back down to earth a notch after their last couple of matches and still keep their confidence up after the latter portion of the second half when they really seemed to consolidate. After a slightly nerve-wracking first half I had little concern over the outcome after the first 10 mins or so of the second.

[Havak]

I'm in a state of total shock that you brought this up.

I thought you might be.

This one too.

I’m not the only one to have remarked on this though am I? It’s been widely picked up on.

The ABs are worthy tri nations winners - but last Saturday’s game is probably more representative of the tight challenges they will face in the latter stages of the RWC than the early try riots against the Boks and hapless Aussies were.

And I believe you may owe that Carlos chap an apology for mercilessly slandering his kicking not so long ago?

This will have to wait until after the last fixture. I accused him of being terribly unreliable with the boot – and he’ll have to put two good kicking performances together to even suggest an apology is needed from me.

It seems that the Boks keep the 'Biffo' for the Wallabies and save the rugby for the All-Blacks. If they'd played like that last week the outcome could've been decidedly different.

Fascinating isn’t it? Why do they consistently go straight to the biff with the Wallabies and England – but not with the ABs?

It'll bring them back down to earth a notch after their last couple of matches and still keep their confidence up after the latter portion of the second half when they really seemed to consolidate.

You have a point – although I’m sure the majority of the players have remained well grounded anyway. Lets hope it has curped the more ‘enthusiastic’ Kiwi fans some of whom seemed to think the RWC was already over bar the shouting.

Let us remember the ABs went into the 1999 RWC as tri-nations champions and red hot favourites…

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak


Then it is worth drinking.

I wouldn't drink it otherwise.

Yes thats true – but here is the thing for me, the AB backs seem to need a very narrow set of conditions (fair weather, firm surface) to ‘turn it on’. Any deviation from that and they let themselves down. It’s a real problem for them.

The weather was fine, just bitterly cold, and the surface was firm, if a bit dew-affected. Their backline's problem was that they couldn't get the ball. The real problems lay elsewhere. As I said earlier, it was an immaculate impersonation of the Wallabies over the last 12 months.

the ABs are not the finished article yet – nor are they dead certs the bookies make them for the RWC in my mind

No, they're not the finished article.

(I still say watch them sneaky Aussies)

Well you might wink. With our front row, we will be thumped by the class teams.

The Bok number 8 incidentally once again looked the class player in his position – Collins is big, strong and impressive carrying ball forward - but he doesn’t get himself on the ball anywhere near enough.

Yes, the Bok #8 is good. I think Collins is improving all the time.

Krige of course has taken great heart from the game and feels it means they can take on England in the pool game. It means no such thing of course - but as long as he is happy thinking that…

If they want to play the very strong, very disciplined rugby they played on Saturday night, they can push England. They just won't score any tries. The discipline is the key. The evidence is, unfortunately, that they like to go the biff against England, as they like to do against us.

How so? It wasn’t particularly different after he came on although I did enjoy his skills in that ball stealing episode.

For starters, he actually contributed something, which Brad Thorn didn't. Can anyone explain to me Mitchell's fascination with Brad Thorn?

Interesting isn’t it that the ABs also parallel the Wallabies in that their main weakness seems to be the front row?

Our is certainly the front row. I don't think their main problem is necessarily in the front row - Saturday night's line-up was yet another version of the reserves. I suspect the main problem is a combination of an - at best - adequate front row and the lack of a strong, experienced partner for Jack. Williams is young and promising but, as has been said before, it's a big step from S12 to Test level.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
This will have to wait until after the last fixture. I accused him of being terribly unreliable with the boot – and he’ll have to put two good kicking performances together to even suggest an apology is needed from me.

Yes, indeed. I'd like to see him doing it a few times in a row before I consider him reliable.

Fascinating isn’t it? Why do they consistently go straight to the biff with the Wallabies and England – but not with the ABs?

The 64,000 Civ Gold question. I suspect they think the Wallabies are dodgy when the biff is applied - we have a history of retaliation and losing concentration. The Twickers match last November - well, they were getting a hiding, so anything went, I suppose. But not the ABs? Maybe they doubt the ABs will be sucked in. Or, maybe, there's just no logic to it.

Let us remember the ABs went into the 1999 RWC as tri-nations champions and red hot favourites…

Speaking of RWCs, red-hot favourites, and bombing out. This is for Caligastia. I was reading this morning that the manager of the hotel in which the ABs stayed when the food poisoning hoo-ha erupted has "come clean". A number of the ABs, he claims, defied team orders and ate outside the hotel at a local seafood restaurant, hence the rampant eruptions at both ends. And the truth, he claims, has been kept under wraps by the AB authorities.