Al Sharpton - We Need to Pay Our Share

[reds4ever]

Originally posted by Berzerker



Me too, and I didn't ask for a dime from the government when I was homeless.

If it happened to me again, I'd go and get what I'm entitled to knowing Id' payed into the 'system'.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by reds4ever

I do what I FEEL is right, I may well be wrong, I can only cast my vote. if you and your concience (or lack thereof) are reconciled then maybe youre as 'cocksure' as you make me out to be

Hey I vote Libertarian and do my part for charity with both time and money. (I realize that we live in different countries, but play along here s.v.p.) I also "allow" you more of your money to do with as you will. My only assumption via my vote is that people are good and intelligent enough to generally make good and intelligent decisions about how to spend the money that they earn. If you are worried about the poor nothing is stopping you from giving more of your money to charity in an effort to help them.

[DanS]

As a society the strong need to look after the weak

Oh, I agree with this, but it's always secondary, even if it is a worthy goal.

The best way to help the poor is to create a situation where it's a primary interest of the government to help the poor. The best way of doing that is by keeping them in the tax base in a substantial way.

Haven't you ever tried figuring out how city government works?

[Berzerker]

If it happened to me again, I'd go and get what I'm entitled to knowing Id' payed into the 'system'.

I didn't and don't feel "entitled" to other people's money. And even these entitlement programs are pay as you go, meaning - you pay now so politicians can buy other people's votes and when it's your turn, they'll steal from your children to buy your vote.

[yavoon]

I think this is a fundamental stumbling block for socialists vs more libertarian ppl. a libertarian thinks about fairness before the cards have been dealt. a socialist thinks about fairness after he sees everyones hand.

[Berzerker]

[David Floyd]

GS,

Fairness is a very vague concept, and I would call that poor person starving significantly more unfair than the rich person having to pay a numerically higher value.

Don't confuse fairness with success. A system can be absolutely fair, and I can still starve, dependant on many, many factors.

reds,

I do what I FEEL is right, I may well be wrong, I can only cast my vote. if you and your concience (or lack thereof) are reconciled then maybe youre as 'cocksure' as you make me out to be

Oh, so you feel that it is right to vote my money away from me? Well, seeing as how you apparently don't believe in property, since you voted my money away, I'll just get a gun and come take yours. Cool?

Sava,

Let's see, what's more fair... allowing millions to suffer, possibly die... or force you to give up a little.

As I told GS, fairness and success/survival are different concepts.

Sorry, I think life is more important than your sense of entitlement.

The only people talking about entitlements are those who support social welfare programs.

So your own subjective view of what's fair is more important than human life....

No, a fair and free system is more important than making the system unfair and unfree in order for you to survive.

[reds4ever]

Originally posted by yavoon
I think this is a fundamental stumbling block for socialists vs more libertarian ppl. a libertarian thinks about fairness before the cards have been dealt. a socialist thinks about fairness after he sees everyones hand.

bang on the money! otherwise how the hell did Dubya get into a decent college, let alone being allowed to run the USA?

[Sava]

As I told GS, fairness and success/survival are different concepts.

But this isn't nature. It's a man-made society. Humans... us... we control it. Is a sport without rules fair? No... Rules and laws exist to make things fair.

And you are speaking about entitlement, even though you won't admit it.

[reds4ever]

Nite, nite it's been fun ;O)

[David Floyd]

Humans... us... we control it. Is a sport without rules fair? No... Rules and laws exist to make things fair.

Except that in sports, one team wins and one team loses. Is that not fair either?

And you are speaking about entitlement, even though you won't admit it.

No, I'm speaking about rights. You are saying that you are entitled to my money, I'm saying that your view of entitlements are all well and good, but my rights are more important.

[Sava]

Except that in sports, one team wins and one team loses. Is that not fair either?

Have you seen the salaries of professional athletes? They all win!

No, I'm speaking about rights. You are saying that you are entitled to my money, I'm saying that your view of entitlements are all well and good, but my rights are more important.

It's not about me being entitled to your money. You live in a society and have certain responsibilities. Paying your taxes is one of them. Then, by democratic process, this society dictates how it's resources are spent. If you don't like it, you can attempt to work within the system to change it, or you can leave. But to say you have a right to not contribute to society is wrong.

[yavoon]

Originally posted by Sava
Have you seen the salaries of professional athletes? They all win!

It's not about me being entitled to your money. You live in a society and have certain responsibilities. Paying your taxes is one of them. Then, by democratic process, this society dictates how it's resources are spent. If you don't like it, you can attempt to work within the system to change it, or you can leave. But to say you have a right to not contribute to society is wrong.

I dont think socialism wins when u are talking about the financial spectrum of athletics. its pretty much a top .5% thing. not very socialist.

[yavoon]

Originally posted by Sava
Have you seen the salaries of professional athletes? They all win!

It's not about me being entitled to your money. You live in a society and have certain responsibilities. Paying your taxes is one of them. Then, by democratic process, this society dictates how it's resources are spent. If you don't like it, you can attempt to work within the system to change it, or you can leave. But to say you have a right to not contribute to society is wrong.

also the second paragraph of this is completely inane. its perfectly conceivable that a democracy could exist where u raped all ppl of a certain color on tuesday. the democratic process isnt inherently fair. its inherently democratic.

[David Floyd]

Have you seen the salaries of professional athletes? They all win!

Stick to the point. The point is that you brought up professional sports as an example, and I said that even in a man made sport, with man made rules, one team wins and one team loses.

It's not about me being entitled to your money.

Sure it is, if you believe that you are entitled to vote my money away from me and to yourself.

You live in a society and have certain responsibilities.

This is by no means clear or established.

Paying your taxes is one of them.

Neither is this.

Then, by democratic process, this society dictates how it's resources are spent. If you don't like it, you can attempt to work within the system to change it, or you can leave.

So either I do what the majority says - or rather, the plurality backed up by those with guns - or I leave? That may be REALITY, but it certainly isn't MORALITY.

But to say you have a right to not contribute to society is wrong.

So, then, you don't believe I have a right to property. By extension, then, you don't either. So, then, if I can get a law passed saying that I can come into your house, take all your possessions, empty your bank accounts, and steal your car, you'll be alright with that?